Salvaged

[dan darko]

Hello,
Pleased to find this group.
Pulled this out of the local scrap yard as I cant stand seeing history scrapped.
I will start to tear it down and see whats what.
Looking forward to discussing it here.
Cheers from Croatia.
D

[cardan]

Worth saving. 1914 cases are much sought after in the UK because to be eligible for the Pioneer Run a bike has to be strictly pre-1915.

The ZA2 Bosch is interesting. It's the correct mag for a Douglas before and a bit after the beginning of the war, but being of German manufacture they were quickly replaced by a range of British magnetos. I don't know much about the ZA2 Bosch Made in USA, but later there were magnetos branded "American Bosch" and "Robert Bosch" made there, so presumably there was a plant in the US active by around 1914. There are dating lists of Bosch serial numbers, but I don't know if the serial number on a US-made magneto will fit in. The water-proof Z magnetos were new for 1912, and ran into the 1920s with not many changes.

By the way "ZA2" is decoded as "Z" (used on most magnetos from the beginning), A=35mm spindle height (vs E=45mm spindle height) and 2=180 degree firing (vs 1=single and V=v-twin). In the British standard, the mag would be labelled "M2".

Leon

[dan darko]

Hi Leon,
Thank you for that info...
TBH the "made in USA" kind of confused me, as well as I had no idea that Bosch was that old of a company.

Here's some pics of the mag removed as well as some progress pics of the tear down.
I'm assuming the pistons are seized but so far a lot of nice moving parts after a bit of cleaning.
Will detach the rods and have a look inside the heads asap to see if theres any hope there.
Attached is also picture of the engine number.
Best
D

[dan darko]

didnt seem to want to load the 5 pics at once...sorry

[dan darko]

cont....

[dan darko]

Mag 1

[dan darko]

mag 2

[eddie]

Interestingly, this engine doesn't seem to be equipped with a breather valve in the timing end of the crankshaft, but instead has one built into the top half of the timing cover! Presumably, there is a drilling between the crankcase proper and the timing chest, or the brass shield has been removed from the timing side main bearing

  Eddie.

 P.S.  Having had a second look, I think this started out as a stationary engine (see the long, bent bottom studs for the lower timing cover (motorcycle engines had short countersunk screws for the timing cover).

[Hutch]

Eddie,

I think you are on the right track with this engine being a stationary one rather than from a motorcycle. As you picked out, the two long studs for the different timing cover for the stationary engine which incorporates the starting handle and on some versions an oil tank (which is why the bottom studs are so long). I'm fairly sure the "breather" on the top small timing cover is for the "tacho" or engine speed indicator as on the Marconi stationary engines.

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=3666.msg13289#msg13289

The following picture was posted on the thread on the "STAR" engine from Sydney, Australia. I think this is very similar to Dan's engine.

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=8389.0

Dan,

I have an American Bosch ZA2 magneto from maybe 1918 (Edit maybe 1915-17 more research to do!). I will take some pictures of it and post here when I get a chance. The history of American Bosch during WW1 and slightly later is an interesting one, especially with regards to the squashing of the Bosch Patents and the forceful takeover of their manufacturing and then Robert Bosch getting it back after the war. I think Leon is on the right track and suspect a rough dating can be done on these magnetos from what "Bosch" company names and trademark are marked on them - but I have not looked into it in any great detail.

An interesting feature of this engine is that the serial number puts it in the range for 1915, not 1914 - maybe Douglas didn't have a magneto to put on it until 1915!?. Also most (but not all) Douglas engines of this period I have seen have the year cast in as raised numbers rather than recessed like Dan's. But I have seen pictures of a few recessed ones for 1914 and 1916, so maybe this was a feature of stationary engines rather than the motorcycle ones? I don't know. Would be interesting to see if the crankcase halves are a matching pair?

Fantastic find tho' and well worth keeping!

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

I just found where the picture I posted of the stationary engine came from!

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2218.msg8041#msg8041

So it appears (Edit: clarification, my picture not Dan's engine) to be one of the RAN copies of the Marconi Generator Set. In this thread is also a picture of possibly the Marconi (or Douglas stationary engine) version from Doug for comparison (as they are slightly different).

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

FYI

https://oldcroak.com/american-bosch-1/

https://www.old-engine.ch/files/magnetzuender_bosch.pdf

Cheers

Hutch

[cardan]

Presumably Douglas fitted some "Made in USA" Bosch magnetos in an attempt to avoid "trading with the enemy" laws that came in early in the war. I've seen a "please explain" letter to an Australian maker - Lewis in Adelaide - who were still using Bosch magnetos in 1915, probably from their pre-war stock.

Interestingly manufacturers in both the US and the UK mostly dropped Bosch magnetos - regardless of there they were made, and the US factory still made them in wartime - in favour of local makes that sprung up "in the national interest".

Leon

[dan darko]

Wow gentlemen thats a lot to take in. Thank you.

I like the ideas of wartime scrambling for parts, I guess a bit of a frankenstein so far.
TBH the "1914" was what called me out to take it home in the first place.
I happen to be a Great War collector along with other militaria stuff.

I'm not sure if this old girl will ever be capable of coming back to life but I'm going to carry on with this curiosity.
Worse case scenario, it becomes a time piece paper weight lol

Managed to get some gears out, got all those swing rods moving as well as the side pins sliding nice.
Got one head off and indeed piston seized, going to soak it for some time and hope for something to give.
I'm sorry if I'm not using proper terms for these bits but this thing is like an alien that landed in my garage.
My oldest motorcycle was 1985 lol.

Will post some progress pics ASAP.
Really appreciate the interest and help

Thanks!
D

PS is the site capable of posting videos directly?


 

[Dave]

Hi Dan,

PS is the site capable of posting videos directly?

Links to videos posted on most video hosting sites (like Youtube) will display and play automatically.
But video files are usually too big (in file size) to upload as an attachment to a post.

However, if you would like to email any videos to the email address shown in this topic, we can easily add it to your post.

Dave (Admin)

[EW-Ron]

A good photo or 2 tells a story better than any 1000 one hour long videos  ... ?

[dan darko]

A good photo or 2 tells a story better than any 1000 one hour long videos  ... ?

Thanks! I get it but pictures cant show the moving parts Im so proud of saving so far lol

[dan darko]

Hi Gents,

Any help on how to remove this center gear?
Is there a trick to it?

TIA
D

[Hutch]

Dan,

No trick to getting the pinion off as far as I know. They can be a  tight fit tho'. You will probably need to use a gear puller (many of the crankcases I have show some damage from people "crow-barring" the pinion off so that rough method is not recommended). There is not much clearance between the back off the pinion and the timing side crankcase half as you are probably aware so the arms of a small puller may need to be modified to fit or you may need to construct a special puller to suit. Penetrating oil will help of course. Possibly a little bit of heat on the gear will help - but be very careful as to not alter the temper of the pinion. Also need to be carful with the puller not to act directly onto the teeth of the pinion as they may break off.

I have come across two types of crank pinions - one with a full slot for the key as you have and there is also a partial slot keyway version which also has an internal groove so the contact area between the pinion and crank is reduced - possibly done to make the gear easier to remove? not sure. I have included a picture of the crank and the two versions of the pinion.

Best of luck getting it off - it shouldn't be too hard.

Cheers

Hutch