Author Topic: Douglas Racers in Spain  (Read 13146 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #150 on: 15 Dec 2023 at 03:05 »
Hi Leon,

Thanks for the identification and info. on Francisquet's Sunbeam. I admit I know virtually nothing about Sunbeam's!. I did a "2 second" glance at the web for information and found a reference to Francisquet and the OHC Sunbeam in 1925. I did notice the sump, but you are correct - it doesn't appear to be in the picture from Montlhery in 1927. So OHV it is!

Pity I cannot find more pictures of this event that may have the Spanish Duglii in them. It would have been interesting to see how Equipo Douglas from Madrid would have fared if they had up to date machines. Maybe the Sunbeam would have still been quicker but I think the margin would have been less?

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #151 on: 15 Dec 2023 at 03:18 »
Here is a great shot of a motorcycle race at Terramar-Sitges. I'm not sure of the date and is probably not 1927!. I'm not sure of the origins of this picture but found it first on a website that was looking into history of the Terramar circuit - details of which I am unable to locate at the present time (I will have another look for it when I get the chance) and also on the Australian motorcycle news website (which seemed to indicate the picture was from 1923 - but I think it is most likely much later than that.

https://amcn.com.au/editorial/sitges-autodrome-spain/

The picture has the "look" of a A Herl picture (?) but have not confirmed that at all yet - so I will keep looking.

Cheers

Hutch

Offline cardan

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1516
  • Location: Adelaide, South Australia
    • Leon's Vintage Motorcycle Page
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #152 on: 15 Dec 2023 at 04:52 »
It's a great shot - indeed art. I'd love to have been there.

There is something weird: the first two bikes have their rear stands still fitted, so I don't think we're in a race, and (is it my imagination?) the front rider has a pillion passenger??!!

I'd guess Cotton for the first bike, but that's a 50-percenter.

Leon


Offline Dave

  • Administrator
  • ****
  • Join Date: Mar 2004
  • Posts: 4327
  • Location: Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #153 on: 15 Dec 2023 at 06:49 »
Looks like the rider is tall and sitting back as far as possible.




Offline graeme

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2004
  • Posts: 659
  • Location: Hobart, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #154 on: 17 Dec 2023 at 05:08 »
The front two look to be on Nortons. As for stands being fitted, I have seen plenty of pictures of bikes at the IOM in the 20s with rear stands fitted

Offline cardan

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1516
  • Location: Adelaide, South Australia
    • Leon's Vintage Motorcycle Page
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #155 on: 17 Dec 2023 at 05:43 »
Yep, could be Nortons. At the TT in vintage years full road equipment was required, including the rear stand, but on a concrete saucer it was a case of dump anything you don't need.

I wonder if the front rider has a bad case of over-inflated leathers? He's a very funny shape!

Leon

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #156 on: 17 Dec 2023 at 06:49 »
Thanks Dave for improving the picture - it is much clearer now!. Before you sharpened it up I was going to hazard a guess that the second bike was a Norton......Was not sure about the leading bike tho' but now I  agree with Graeme and it appears to be a Norton as well. Appears to be a race to me as they are wearing racing numbers on their backs?

It looks to me like the Douglas coming 4th is about to "round up" the other riders i.e. appears he is going faster than them but alas we may never know (...and probably wishful thinking on my part!!). I still have not managed to find out when the picture was taken but could well have been 1926 or (against what I thought above) maybe  April 1927. I need to go back through the entry lists for events at Terramar that had at least 2 Nortons and RA Douglii in them.

EDIT: Two Nortons and Douglas in the event at Terramar in September 1926 (https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=9283.msg38414#msg38414) - but there were also multiple Nortons in the event on 3rd April 1927!

I notice in the picture some gravel on the infield that appears to have been washed onto the track - a bit like rain might do?

The following picture was supplied by  Javier  (many thanks!) from Libro de oro del motociclismo Espanol. It is dated March 1927 and I thought the date was a typo but had a quick look in the Spanish Archives (https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital) and found a couple of interesting articles in La Nacion (Madrid) on 28 3 1927 and 4 4 1927. It appears the scheduled match race at Terramar was postponed for 8 days due to bad weather and rain. It was run on the 3rd April 1927 instead. It appears the weather cleared up almost straight away but some of the travellers from other parts of Spain stayed and had a "holiday" instead of returning home. It appears they managed to get a little practice in while they waited for the event. The picture shows Manolo Canto (is this the same person as Manuel canto whom I think was the sidecar passenger for Naure? He rode a Velocette in the 350cc event on the 3rd) and Alonso Martinez (whom I think is Gonzalo Alonso Martinez who rode a Scott and came 6th). The RA Douglas is possibly that of Mateos but the handlebars don't look quite right ? I Will have to have closer look.....

-Hutch

« Last Edit: 17 Dec 2023 at 07:45 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #157 on: 17 Dec 2023 at 07:00 »
The article from La Nacion 28 3 1927 on the Terramar - Sitges match race postponement. (Article from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

Well dome to Santos on his lap record at the Montlhery Short Course!  EDIT: more on the return to Montlhery in a future post.

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 17 Dec 2023 at 07:36 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #158 on: 17 Dec 2023 at 07:12 »
Here is the report on the match race at Terramar run on the 3rd April 1927 from La Nacion 4 4 1927 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

Leon is correct - it would have been great to witness these races in period ! :-)

Maybe the bigger fuel tank on the OB helped out Naure just enough as Mateos was the quicker man!! :-)

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 17 Dec 2023 at 07:35 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #159 on: 17 Dec 2023 at 07:53 »

The picture shows Manolo Canto (is this the same person as Manuel Canto whom I think was the sidecar passenger for Naure? He rode a Velocette in the 350cc event on the 3rd) and Alonso Martinez (whom I think is Gonzalo Alonso Martinez who rode a Scott and came 6th). The RA Douglas is possibly that of Mateos but the handlebars don't look quite right ? I Will have to have closer look.....

-Hutch

Here is a comparison of Mateos's Douglas in the event on the 3rd April 1927 and the one that Canto is seated on in the picture Javier provided - looks to me to be the same machine?

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #160 on: 18 Dec 2023 at 23:44 »
Now we are now really starting to see the end of Equipo Douglas. Vicente Naure has joined Velocette and Quinones appears to be concentrating on his aeronautical accessories activities. The word "Douglas" is not as prominent in the press now as it has been for a few years (interesting that in general the makes of riders bikes is not reported as much as before i.e. it is not only Douglas that doesn't get a mention. It is possible that Quinones had good connections with the Madrid press and this helped him promote Douglas as much as possible? we have seen this before with Bailey and the English Motorcycle Press). It seems that from about this time onwards the relationship between Quinones and Douglas has soured somewhat - more on that later.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #161 on: 18 Dec 2023 at 23:59 »
A kilometre sprint race was held by the Moto Club de Andalucía at Seville in July 1926. Edit: Oooops Big Error from me as this event was in 1927 not 1926 I had the picture in the wrong folder and did not check it - silly me!.  I have removed the text and picture and will put it in the correct chronological order later in this thread

-Hutch

Yes I made a mistake with this one and had it in my 1926 year folder! Anyway - now putting it in the correct chronological order. To date these are the last pictures of a Douglas Racers I can find for 1927. It is of Baltasar Santos at a kilometre sprint race held at Seville in July 1927. Naure is racing a Velocette (I think for the first time).

Interesting the number of Douglas bikes entered in this event but alas only pictures of Santos found so far. Picture and text from La Nacion 20 7 1927 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #162 on: 29 Dec 2023 at 05:26 »
This is the last picture of Douglas Racers that Javier and I have been able to find so far for 1927. It is a copy (albeit not a very good one) of the previous picture of Santos from La Union Ilustrada 4 8 1927 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital).

From Clew’s “The Best Twin” we have the attached excerpt from page 96. I presume the Spanish Agent is Quinones. Early 1928 Cyril Pullin leaves Douglas to pursue the Ascot-Pullin, which was not a success. Did Douglas's refusal to help Quinones out with the single cylinder motorcycle sour relations between them? That appears possible given the sudden disappearance of Equipo Douglas.

Were there so many Douglas entrants for the kilometre sprint at Seville because Equipo Douglas was being sold off? Maybe to help finance Quinones venture with Pullin? Not sure at all....


-Hutch

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #163 on: 29 Dec 2023 at 05:32 »
It is interesting to compare some features of  Ascot-Pullin Engine design with the Douglas D.28, which I presume was also a Pullin design (e.g. OHV pushrod covers and general OHV rocker layout ) and also the Douglas TT “Twin Cam” machines designed by Dixon (e.g. the depth of the cylinder barrels spigots into the crankcase halves). (As stated above by Clew, Dixon left Douglas then returned after Pullin left so maybe he inherited some of the TT engine design from Pullin?)

Ascot-Pulling Engine pictures from;
https://www.motorkari.cz/clanky/veterani/ascot-pullin-500-sports-utility-britske-art-deco-od-viteze-tourist-trophy-46217.html
Picture of the D.28 from Leon’s post
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=6140.msg22651#msg22651

Dixon TT engine detail can be found in Doug’s post.

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5122.msg18557#msg18557

Cheers

Hutch

« Last Edit: 29 Dec 2023 at 06:11 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

  • Master Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 709
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #164 on: 29 Dec 2023 at 05:45 »
Picture of drive side D.28 cylinder head for comparison with Ascot-Pullin (Picture from Doug's post;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2161.msg7819#msg7819)

Cheers

Hutch