Author Topic: Douglas Racers in Spain  (Read 13297 times)

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Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #50 on: 03 Jan 2023 at 04:39 »
Leon,

Great info. and Interesting observations from "The Motor Cycle" on Naure's outfit in the 1925 sidecar TT controls. I gather he ran as high as 3rd before retiring with mechanical issues? The first picture in this thread is from 1926 so I guess it is possible Naure's bike could have been derived in part from the 1925 Sidecar TT machine (??), but maybe impossible to tell due to the modifications that appear to be performed on most of these Spanish machines over time?

Naure  rode Harley Davidsons in 1923 / early 1924 before switching to Douglas. I would guess this may have had an impact on his choice of hand and foot controls for their Dougii? I think Z. Mateos also rode a Harley in 1924 but would have to check.

I have some pictures of Naure's outfit  in Spain during 1925 coming up very soon (after finishing off what Javier and I have found for 1924 - only a few left to go....) - the dates of these pictures may tell us something about its origins?

Cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: 04 Jan 2023 at 03:04 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #51 on: 04 Jan 2023 at 02:31 »
Another picture from 1924, this time Vicente Naure, presumably taken during testing for the San Sebastian race? . Not a good picture but interesting to compare with Mateos's RA from the same period. Picture from The Madrid Herald 22/9/1924.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #52 on: 04 Jan 2023 at 02:42 »
To slightly confuse matters, on the same page of El Heraldo de Madrid from 22/9/1924 we have a picture of Zacarias Mateos on an S1 rather than an RA - maybe his RA wasn't ready for practice or he was using a "hack" for practice to save the RA?  or maybe the picture is from another event? - not sure at all!

Cheers

Hutch

Edit: Added better quality picture of Mateos at San Sebastian. Picture supplied by Javier.
« Last Edit: 05 Dec 2023 at 06:03 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #53 on: 05 Jan 2023 at 00:40 »
I think this is the last of the 1924 pictures for now (apart from a few pictures that Leon found at https://www.kutxateka.eus/Search/objects?search=douglas from the San Sebastian races that have not been posted yet). It is a poor quality picture of Z. Mateos competing in the hill climb at  Navacerrada from Gran Vida 1/6/1924.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #54 on: 06 Jan 2023 at 00:26 »
Early in 1925 Vicente Naure, Zacarias Mateos (solo 750cc 128km/h) and Baltasar Santos (500cc 129km/h) set records over an officially timed measured km at Torrejón de Ardoz. Here we have Vicente Naure, who set two records for 600cc (111km/h) and 750cc (118km/h) both with sidecar. (I assume the runs were from a standing start)

Vicente's machine (from Gran Vida 1/2/1925) appears to be OB derived but with RA brakes - note twin front fork dampers!

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2023 at 00:33 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #55 on: 08 Jan 2023 at 22:50 »
Also from Gran Vida 1/2/1925 is this picture of Naure, Santos and Mateos - all smiles after their Spanish National record breaking runs.

Zacarias Mateos's Douglas is 750cc so we should probably call it an S2 rather than S1? (possibly same machine as shown in reply #52 above?). Looking at the speeds this machine attained, although possibly outdated by 1925 was not slow in a straight line :-).

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 08 Jan 2023 at 22:56 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #56 on: 11 Jan 2023 at 03:31 »
From Gran Vida we have an action picture of Fredrico Segrario (12th April 1925) in the ascent of  Leon(La Subida al Puerto del Leon).

He ascended in 6m and 43 seconds and 4/10ths riding a RW Douglas.

See reply #1 in this thread for an interesting illustration of the performance comparison between Segarario's 350cc machine and the 500cc RA of Zacarias Mateos.

Mateos completed the same distance in 5 minutes 47 seconds and 8/10 ths.

(Picture supplied by Javier)

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2023 at 22:28 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #57 on: 12 Jan 2023 at 22:49 »
On 28th December 1924 Baltasar Santos set a 350cc Spanish National Motorcycle record at Peña Rhin, this result was closely followed by  those set by Naure, Mateos and Santos again (500cc) at  Torrejón de Ardoz early in 1925  (as mentioned above in reply #54). I have not found any pictures of Baltasar's earlier record to date. This newspaper advert from the Madrid Herald 9th Feb 1925 announces these results.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #58 on: 13 Jan 2023 at 00:55 »
In the April 1925 edition of Heraldo Deportiva was reported a test run over 500m standing start in Madrid at the Retreat or El Retiro Park. Baltasar Santos was 1st in Category B in a time of 27.6 seconds, Mateos 1st (21.8s) and Santos 2nd (31.2s) in Category C, Mateos 2nd in Category E (to the Indian of Julio Acebo (26.2s) in a time of 27s). Naure was 1st in both category F and G (sidecars) with times of 23.2s and 22.6s (which BTW appear to be fast times when compared with those of Santos and Mateos on the solo Duglii).

I am guessing Category B is 350cc, Category C is 500cc, Category E might be 1000cc (?).

(picture supplied by Javier)

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #59 on: 13 Jan 2023 at 01:01 »
On the same page of the Heraldo Deportiva we have this picture of Mateos at speed - wow what a wide road!.

(picture supplied by Javier)

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #60 on: 14 Jan 2023 at 23:24 »
These results encouraged the Spanish Douglas Agent Quiñones to place two full page advertisements in Gran Vida in April 1925.

Edit: Colour Version of Advert added from Gran Vida suplied by Javier





Images of PDF's added - Dave, 16Jan2023
« Last Edit: 05 Dec 2023 at 06:19 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #61 on: 14 Jan 2023 at 23:29 »
Also in this April 1925 edition of Gran Vida is a picture of Mateos - but this picture appears to be taken at San Sebastian Lasarte circuit rather than  La Subida al Puerto del Leon??

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #62 on: 16 Jan 2023 at 22:16 »
From Espana Automovil 30th April 1925 we have this picture of the 750cc outfit of Naure at the 500 metros sin lanzamiento as listed in the full page advert in reply #60 above - I inadvertently attached the pdf version so a big thanks to Dave for fixing this up and posting the actual pictures :-).

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #63 on: 16 Jan 2023 at 22:53 »
In the first post in this thread I mentioned that Naure had piloted a sidecar in the 1925 Sidecar IOM TT and Leon followed this up with a great picture of Naure at this event;


Can I go back to the first photo in the first post in this thread? https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=9283.msg36697#msg36697

Naure rode a 600cc Douglas in the 1925 Sidecar TT on the Isle of Man - pretty much a "TT Douglas" as we might find in the 1926 catalogue. However his bike a different from the others: according to the Motor Cycle (11 June 1925, p851) "Naure's sidecar outfit has the gear change on the near side, a foot operated clutch, and twist grip ignition control on the left handle-bar."

Interesting, then, that three of the bikes (the RA second from the left and the two OBs) have their gear change on the left, like Naure's 1925 TT bike. However it seems unlikely that any of these are Naure's 1925 TT bike, which had a drum front brake. https://www.imuseum.im/search/collections/archive/mnh-museum-539812.html

Leon
....


The 1925 IOM Sidecar TT was run on June 19th 1925. The following picture of Naure is from Gran Vida 1st August 1925 from the 12 hour race at Guadarrama . He travelled just over 641km for a record and first in his class in this gruelling event.

His outfit in the 12 hour has front drum brake and certainly 1925 TT in appearance compared to the previously shown presumably "OB" based machine - so could this well be his 1925 IOM TT outfit??

(picture supplied by Javier)

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 16 Jan 2023 at 23:02 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #64 on: 18 Jan 2023 at 03:02 »
Two more pictures of Naure at the 12 Hour race at Guadarrama. Both these pictures are from Madrid Automovil 8 1925.

-Hutch

Edit: Is Naure at Alto del Leon (Guadarrama Pass) in the first picture?
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2023 at 10:17 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #65 on: 18 Jan 2023 at 03:19 »
Also at the 12 Hour Race at Guadarrama was Jim Whalley - winning the 500cc Class. Picture supplies by Javier from Gran Vida 1 7 1925. His machine appears to be a 1925 IOM TT model - possibly like Naure, direct from the IOM TT to Spain?

-Hutch

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #66 on: 18 Jan 2023 at 03:48 »
Should I feel a bit sorry for Vicente Naure? It seems awfully like he was allowed to ride a proper TT Douglas outfit in an event or two in Spain after the 1925 TT, but when the "real" Douglas team went home they took the TT outfit with them, leaving him with the weird-OB-thing? Or have I got the timeline wrong?

Are there photos of Spaniards racing TT Douglases? Or did these only go to Spain in the hands of British riders?

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #67 on: 18 Jan 2023 at 04:30 »
Leon,

Yes you have the timeline of the pictures correct - Naure does appear to have gone back to the OB based machine at a later date.

Not sure where Naure's TT sidecar went after the 12 Hour at Gaudarrama yet. It may have gone on to other continental events, back to the UK or expired big time in some later Spanish event ? I will have a look ahead later in 1925 (not much left) and in the 1926 onwards pictures and see if I can find out any clues. Might also do some searching and see if Naure travelled to other countries after the 12 Hour to compete with the TT sidecar if I get a chance. Frame breakages were an issue on these machines and after the gruelling 12 Hour maybe the frame was kaput? Would not surprise me if Naure's "OB" was beefed up to take the punishment?

I don't think I have seen any Spanish riders other than Naure on TT machines for 1925 but will look again.

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #68 on: 18 Jan 2023 at 05:12 »
hmmmm.... Jumping ahead to this picture from Gran Vida 1 5 1926 - 600cc sidecar class at Castilla......Maybe Naure's 1925 TT sidecar. or a new machine for 1926 (?)...more investigations to be done I think....! (...as usual :-) )

-Hutch

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #69 on: 18 Jan 2023 at 08:38 »
OK - I guess my complete unfamiliarity with the names and geography make the story a bit hard to follow. I thought the very first photo in the thread shows Naure in 1926 on his OB-thing, but maybe he had the TT too, in which case why did he bother to show up on the OB-thing? The insides of an OB engine and a TT engine, not to mention the chassis and brakes, are chalk and cheese.

I guess the thing that surprises me most is that there seem to be very few genuine Douglas racers on the Spanish scene, despite there being various races and racetracks well suited to road racing. In Australia, by comparison, despite the lack of road racing venues, there were probably 50 or so RAs and quite a few TTs active in racing. Ultimately the answer is probably commercial: Douglas were selling literally thousands of 2 3/4s in Australia (and obviously a number of expensive RAs), and the well-equipped Douglas racing teams in Sydney (Williams Bros) and Melbourne (Turner Bros) were (let's face it) advertising vehicles. I wonder if the number of Douglases sold to the public in Spain in the 1920s was relatively small?

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #70 on: 20 Jan 2023 at 02:02 »
OK - I guess my complete unfamiliarity with the names and geography make the story a bit hard to follow. I thought the very first photo in the thread shows Naure in 1926 on his OB-thing, but maybe he had the TT too, in which case why did he bother to show up on the OB-thing? The insides of an OB engine and a TT engine, not to mention the chassis and brakes, are chalk and cheese.
........
Leon


Hi Leon,

When I started this thread I picked some (what I thought were) interesting pictures to gain some viewer interest without any thought at all as to chronology or relevance. After a while, I realised that there was some benefit in keeping to a rough chronological order to try and keep track of changing riders and machines over time and also how machines developed over time.  Your question delving a bit deeper is what I was hoping for :-)

I did a little digging and found that the regulations for some of the event Naure entered may have had a clause for the minimum number of participants in each class - for example if a class had less that 3 entrants, the class would not be run. In Naure's case, in one event in late 1925, he was the only 600cc Sidecar entrant - so he ran in the 1000cc Sidecar class (I think) - hardly fair maybe but at least he got a run. Also the period that the 600cc TT outfit was not used was over the winter and possibly not as many suitable events were run? - no idea and a guess only.

In some events there appears to be no class for the smaller capacity sidecars and as it appears (?) that Naure had the TT machine for 600cc and kept the OB based outfit for 750cc events. In the longer distance events Naure could obviously only ride one machine at a time and may have had to chose which class he was to run in? Obviously the TT machine would dominate the 600cc sidecar class if that event was run. In the short sprint races and hill climbs, Naure ran in multiple classes on the same day and appears to have used the TT for the 600cc class and the OB for the 750cc ones. I have tried to work out which was quicker, but so far without any definate answer - but I suspect it was the 750cc.

So my guess is that after the 1925 Guadarrama 12 Hour,  Naure used the OB based machine over the TT one due to lack of 600cc sidecar class races and if he was entered in the larger classes he may as well use the 750cc OB?? Not sure really and it is hard to piece together from the newspaper reports.

Yes the original 600cc OB internals are far inferior that the TT offerings of 1925 - but we don't know what internals Naure was running in his 750cc engine - they could well be equals to the TT? I would think that his 750cc engine would have very few components in common with an original OB one. The extra capacity of the 750 would definitely be of a benefit over the 600cc TT engine for sidecar use I would think tho'.

I am not sure that the OB frame was inferior to the 1925 TT one - their dimensions and construction appear to be very similar albeit the top tube above the tank. I cannot comment of the relative performance of Naures "OB" sidecar over the 1925 TT version - in sprint events maybe which ever is lighter would be better - in the longer events maybe which one survives the punishment (on the machine and passenger - is that body protection the Naure's passenger is wearing in the picture in reply #63 above?) and has the best handling would be better. the longer races in Spain were very demanding - The 1925 Sidecar TT was over about 151 Miles (approx. 243 km),  Naure at the Guadarrama completed 614.64 km in the 12 hours (...albeit at a lower average speed than Len Parker at the TT).

-maybe Naures 600cc TT sidecar was well worn out after these punishing events and was returned to the UK for some R&R in the "off season"?

Yes I agree with the brake comment - Naure's OB outfit has RA brakes in most pictures, which do appear to at least have a better reputation than the dummy belt rim brakes used on the OB as standard (same as CW!), but one would have to think the drum brakes of the TT machine was a step in the right direction. I have no first hand experience with RA style brakes so cannot comment of their efficiency. I can only recall one anecdotal reference to them in that they worked ok but tended to grab - so riders lubricated them - I think it was referred to in Clews TBT (?) Drums may fade when used hard compared with the RA "disc" style brake tho'?? On the heavier outfit + passenger this may be more of an issue than with a solo machine?? (I have real no idea - brakes only slow you down, don't they?? sorry for the old racer comment :-))

More to come when I get a chance.....

Cheers

Hutch

« Last Edit: 20 Jan 2023 at 05:46 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #71 on: 17 Feb 2023 at 01:46 »
……..I guess the thing that surprises me most is that there seem to be very few genuine Douglas racers on the Spanish scene, despite there being various races and racetracks well suited to road racing. In Australia, by comparison, despite the lack of road racing venues, there were probably 50 or so RAs and quite a few TTs active in racing. Ultimately the answer is probably commercial: Douglas were selling literally thousands of 2 3/4s in Australia (and obviously a number of expensive RAs), and the well-equipped Douglas racing teams in Sydney (Williams Bros) and Melbourne (Turner Bros) were (let's face it) advertising vehicles. I wonder if the number of Douglases sold to the public in Spain in the 1920s was relatively small?
Leon
Apologies for the time it has taken for me to reply to your post Leon – things have been very busy here over the last month.

I think you are on the money with the comparison of available venues in Spain compared to those in Australia. There appears to have been far more suitable short circuits available in Australia due to access, to the many existing showgrounds and horse racing tracks and also purpose built tracks such as Maroubra and the Melbourne Motordrome etc. Also, these venues were “gated “ to the public, so it would have been easier to collect money from the public compared to the road circuits in Spain (even tho’ from what is shown in the pictures we have seen, the Spanish road races had possibly more spectators than the Australian events (due to spectator capacity at some of the tracks) it would have been difficult for the promoters to make any money out of them? When dirt track racing became popular in Britain in 1928 the promoters adapted many greyhound and some athletic and cycling facilities to suit speedway. These were close to population bases , had reasonable spectator capacity and already possibly had gambling systems in place. So possibly a much better money making proposition for promoters than the Spanish races? – not sure. ( an aside -the Douglas bikes with their relatively long wheel base, were better suited to the longer tracks of Australia, road races at IOM TT  and on the continent – such as Spain, than their  opposition on the shorter UK tracks and eventually their dominance was squashed (i.e. by 1929-1930 by more suitable machines (i.e. Rudge) ?)

Yes Leon – I agree -in reality it all comes down to the money! 😊

I had a quick look at the GDP of regions in Spain in the 1920’s and 30’s. I was trying to compare this with Australia but have not found the information yet to compare the relative wealth of the two nations in this period but will keep looking. Interestingly I did find out that the three regions of Spain with the highest GDP in 1930 was (In order from highest to lowest as a % of total GDP) were Cataluña (20.17%), Andalucía (15.69%), and Madrid (10.19%). It appears from the location of the events we have looked at so far that there is some correlation between these more affluent regions and the prevalence of Automobile and motorcycle races in Spain?

As you say, the racing motorcycles are mobile advertisements -from the motorcycle manufacturer’s point of view supporting motorcycle racing would be to develop (race winning) technology, display that to the public at racing venues and then mass producing (least viable product) machines to sell to the public to make as much money as possible.

Les Bailey appears to be more oriented towards the former and maybe Millman was more oriented toward the later - a differance of opinion that caused some friction between them? (I guess for any company it is a balancing act?) No surprise then, in 1925, the following article is placed in the Spanish media after the string of success of Douglas motorcycles in many events. (Apologies for posting this as it is not a picture of a Spanish racing Douglas 😊 ). This is from Heraldo Deprtiva 15 November 1925 – picture supplied by Javier.

In 1925 Bailey returns to Australia but still retains very strong connections to Douglas and I guess was possibly instrumental in securing many RA machines to come to the antipodes to be raced at the many suitable venues?? He was also directly involved in the promotion of some of these venues. Also in 1925-26 many TS and CW machines appear to have been essentially “dumped” in Australia prior to the arrival of the "famous" EW.

In Spain, the Douglas agent Quinines appears to be expanding his business and during 1925-26 is opening new offices – but possibly doesn’t have the factory connections and “sway” that Bailey does? Maybe how much factory support he gets depends on the size of his market and the potential to sell “domestic” motorcycles? Hence, as you say, the number of Douglas RA’s or TT machines that are available to Spanish riders is proportional to the combination of how many bikes Douglas expect to sell into the Spanish market, how many suitable venues there for racing that can attract paying spectators and the wealth of the Spanish competitors to be able to afford such machines in the first place rather than relying on factory rider bringing in the factory racing machines.

Although Douglas seems to be going from strength to strength in Australia in 1925-26, some events in Spain seem to change the direction of success for Quinones, Naure and Douglas for the worse (as we will see shortly). Also, other makers such as Velocette are coming onto the Spanish motorcycle racing scene.

Possibly Spain also introduced or enforced existing import tariffs on these foreign vehicles to protect local manufacturers around this time? Not sure and will have to investigate that further.

Thanks for introducing the comparison between the Spanish and Australian motorcycle racing scene in this era Leon - it has been interesting looking into it and I am sure there is a little bit more still to uncover!

(Further to the comparison between Vicente Naure's OB and TT outfits I have investigated this a little more and will post my thoughts on this when I have that progressed it a bit more.)

Cheers
Hutch




 

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #72 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 06:33 »
Further to Leon’s reply #49,

…….Naure rode a 600cc Douglas in the 1925 Sidecar TT on the Isle of Man - pretty much a "TT Douglas" as we might find in the 1926 catalogue. However his bike a different from the others: according to the Motor Cycle (11 June 1925, p851) "Naure's sidecar outfit has the gear change on the near side, a foot operated clutch, and twist grip ignition control on the left handle-bar."
…..

, we have the following well known picture from the Douglas Depot at IOM 1925. This particular version is from the Velobanjogent website;

http://velobanjogent.blogspot.com/2008/09/pictures-from-my-archive-frequent-dip_16.html

The bike on the right with number 23 on it is correctly identified (Edit: need to check this as there may have been a solo entry No. 23 and cannot clearly see the sidecar on this No23 -see reply #76 below - it could be the Douglas of Z. Mateos) as Parker’s TT winning machine in the blog, but no real comments on the outfit on the left. With (a faint) number 34 on it would appear to be Vicente Naure’s and M. Canto’s machine. A closer look reveals what looks like the ball on the end of the left hand gear change lever. Pity we cannot see more detail of the left hand side clutch pedal as well.

This outfit has a “tilting” sidecar chair (see Leon's picture) but is a different design to that used by Dixon in the 1923 event. This front view (and also on Leon’s picture) shows some sort of strutting below the chair that appears to be part of the tilting mechanism (only the chair appears to tilt rather than the whole outfit as per the Dixon setup).

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 22 Feb 2023 at 11:04 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #73 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 06:54 »
A few more pictures of Naure and Canto at the IOM TT 1925. First one is of them "playing up" for the camera. Originally from the Kieg Collection but this version from NCR May / June 2010.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #74 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 06:58 »
The above picture was probably in practice but this one appears to be from the race.

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #75 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 07:01 »
And last for this set, another Douglas "publicity shot" in the Depot. Naure and Canto's machine on the right this time with a better look at the left hand side gearchange and the "chair" tilting to the right a little bit this time!

Does anyone have better copies of these pictures from the Kieg Collection?

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #76 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 10:40 »
No. 23 is identified as Len Parker's outfit by Velobanjogent (http://velobanjogent.blogspot.com/2008/09/pictures-from-my-archive-frequent-dip_16.html). I agreed with this in Reply #72 but after looking a bit more closely at the pictures I suspect we are both wrong!. There does not appear to be a sidecar attached to No 23 (?) and also it does not appear to have the reinforced forks that Naure's machine does. Pictures of Parker's Sidecar TT winning machine shows it has reinforced forks.

I also note that No 23 does not appear to have a gear change lever on the right side where we would normally expect to see it.......also we have an entry in the Senior for Z. Mateos (DNF) !. So is No.23 Mateos's Douglas?

I will search and see if I can find an entry list and check if the Douglas solo entry with the number 23 is for Mateos - and this may solve the puzzle!

Does this mean that these pictures were some sort of promotional pictures for a Spanish / Douglas connection?

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 22 Feb 2023 at 11:01 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #77 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 23:07 »
Another picture from the Douglas Depot at IOM TT in 1925 is shown in Clew's TBT on pg 77 (2nd ed.). Looks like Naure on the far left and I can pick out William Douglas at the back and some of the other well known riders such as Judd and Dixon. If I get time I will see who else I can identify. Potentially the same two bikes as in the other pictures - number 34 outfit and No 23 solo.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #78 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 23:11 »
Last picture I have found so far of Naure and Canto at the IOM TT 1925.. This one from p41 of Peter Carrick's book on Douglas . Great shot of Naure and Canto and the tilting chair in action.

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2023 at 01:17 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #79 on: 22 Feb 2023 at 23:49 »
I was looking for more information on the Spanish riders in the IOM TT and found out that Santos was also riding for Douglas. A quick look in the British Newspaper Archives uncovered this picture which will be a great guide to putting names to faces in the about pictures of the Douglas Depot. It is from the Western Daily Press 1 June 1925 depicting some of the Douglas Riders departing for the Isle of Man.

So now it appears we have two choices for Number 23 - Santos and Mateos !

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2023 at 01:18 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #80 on: 23 Feb 2023 at 04:27 »
From the Ramsey Courier June 12th 1925 I have a list of the Douglas riders in the IOM TT 1925,

Sidecar

22 Dixon
23 Parker
31 Hatton
34 Naure

Junior

5 Sheard T.M.
6 Dixon
14 Judd
52 Whalley

Senior

14 Dixon
21 Judd (scratch)
22 Whalley
23 Mateos
41 Gus Kuhn
50 Anstice
51 Santos

So number 23 in the Douglas Depot is the machine ridden by Z. Mateos (not the sidecar of Parker as previously stated)

Cheers

Hutch



« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2023 at 22:37 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #81 on: 23 Feb 2023 at 05:36 »
So number 23 in the Douglas Depot is the machine ridden by Z. Mateos (not the sidecar of Parker as previously stated)

Which explains why no. 23 also has the gear change lever on the left. Interesting that Douglas had so much invested with the Spanish riders.

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #82 on: 23 Feb 2023 at 06:19 »
Leon,

Yes I made my initial boo-boo in agreeing with Velobajogent (reply #72 and partly corrected in reply #76) that No. 23 was the outfit of Parker without really looking at the picture properly - silly me!. Also explains why there is no reinforcing on the forks! :-).

I read somewhere (cannot find it right now but it may have been in Clew TBT) that Parker was a private entry and hence probably wouldn't have been at the Douglas Depot anyway?? Have to investigate that one further, but we may never know the answer to that.

I forgot to attach the text from below the Douglas Team picture from Western Daily Press 1 June 1925. It appears that the Spanish riders were under the guidance of a Mr A. Petry. I have not found out who he is yet but it appears he is not a Douglas employee?? The Spanish Douglas agent Quinones does appear to have set up offices in France and also London (not sure of the dates but maybe late 1925 to1926?) and maybe Petry is involved with that? Pure guess on my part.

Yes I agree there appears to be a big investment by Douglas in the Spanish riders but I am not sure if it is being driven from the Douglas end or by the Spanish end? I gather Douglas invested almost nothing in Continental motorcycle racing in 1924? Not sure how much Bailey leaving impacted this?

cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #83 on: 23 Feb 2023 at 07:07 »
From The Isle of Man Examiner June 5th 1925 it appears that the Spanish riders were nominated by a Douglas agent in Madrid - which would be Quinones ! I wonder how the financing of the Spanish effort was distributed between Quinones and Douglas?

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #84 on: 23 Feb 2023 at 07:20 »
From IOM Examiner 12th June 1925 we have a little more information and confirmation Parker is a private entry. Interesting that Santos was an employee of Quinones.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #85 on: 28 Feb 2023 at 23:38 »
How did the Spanish Douglas riders fare at the IOM TT 1925. Not so well unfortunately. Mateos had magneto failure, Santos crashed at Ballig and Naure had unspecified mechanical issues. I cannot find any evidence that he ran as high as 3rd before the Douglas expired but will keep looking.

 The next picture is not in Spain nor the rider Spanish but the picture was shown in the Spanish Media. Dixon in full flight on his 600cc Sidecar ! (Picture from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

cheers

Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #86 on: 28 Feb 2023 at 23:40 »
Next up we have Naure in the 1925 12 Hour race at Guadarrama. Picture supplied by Javier from Hearldo Deportiva 15th July 1925.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #87 on: 28 Feb 2023 at 23:44 »
Another from Heraldo Deportiva 15th July 1925 (Supplied by Javier) - This is a picture of Anstice.

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 01 Mar 2023 at 05:34 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #88 on: 28 Feb 2023 at 23:46 »
Douglas certainly got some publicity in Heraldo Deportiva in July - here we have a picture of two Douglii  from the race (supplied by Javier)

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #89 on: 28 Feb 2023 at 23:53 »
Douglas had again performed well at the 12 Hour at Guadarrama and Quinones advertised the fact in the Spanish press. This advert from Gran Vida 1 August 1925.

Quinones now has offices in Madrid, Mellila (North Africa?), Seville, Paris and London.

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 01 Mar 2023 at 05:32 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #90 on: 06 Mar 2023 at 23:13 »
I was pondering the location of the bridge in Reply #88, as I thought I had seen it before when looking at the Sergovia – Puerto de Navacerrada road (CL-601) around the Seven Revolutions (Las Siete Revueltas).  I located this historic bridge at Puente de la Cantina and although a top rail seems to have been added since 1925 and the buildings in the background have disappeared, the scene appears to be very similar? (It is the only bridge I have found that looks similar but it may not be the correct one!)

Some historic information about this location can be found in this website (the map below is from this website);

https://www.acueducto2.com/puente-de-la-cantina-venta-de-los-mosquitos/19949

So it appears the name of the cantina (?) in the background was Venta de los Mosquitos (...and might explain why it is not there these days....) There seems to be some question marks about the location of this cantina, but I think in 1925 it was there for the sale of Mozzies!

Assuming that a photographer would not want to venture too far from a place of refreshment during the 12 hour race then I think it highly likely there would be a cantina nearby?! :-).

The Douglas riders are heading in the direction of The Seven Revolutions (or is that The Seven Revolts? Where Anstice is in reply #87) and onto Puerto Navacerrada (Naure - Reply #64). Edit: Naure in Reply #64 appears to be at Alto del Leon (Guadarrama Pass)

Cheers

Hutch





« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2023 at 22:50 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #91 on: 09 Mar 2023 at 22:47 »
Another picture from the Guadarrama 12 hour. 1925 Here we have Whalley on No. 3. I think the location is near Guadarrama Pass and is the same location as Naure in the second picture in reply#64.

Picture from España  Automovil 30 7 1925.

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #92 on: 03 Apr 2023 at 03:44 »
On October 25th 1925 the motorcycle and sidecar championship of Spain were held at the Levante Circuit. Z. Mateos was first, followed by Sagrario and Whalley. Picture supplied by Javier from Heraldo Deportiva 5 11 1925.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #93 on: 03 Apr 2023 at 03:52 »
In reply #64 above I guessed that Naure was shown at Alto del Leon in the first picture - here is Alto del Leon as it is in recent times, from Google maps for comparison.

cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #94 on: 04 Apr 2023 at 02:22 »
I am having a little difficulty in finding pictures of riders in action at the races held on 25th October on the Levante Circuit in the newspaper archives and other sources - a little strange. At https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital quite a few publications are still in copyright so access to them is limited to personally visiting their facilities to use specific computers, so maybe one of these papers had rights to the "action" pictures for this event? not sure. Some media sources refer to the race at Mataro rather than the Levante Circuit......Will look some more when I get a chance.

I came across this poster from various sources on the internet - quite a colourful and dramatic image.....Looks like it could well be a Douglas to me! One such internet source of the poster is this one.....Although an original I won't be buying it'!

https://www.1stdibs.com/en-gb/furniture/wall-decorations/posters/original-vintage-auto-racing-poster-gran-premio-gp-motorbike-grand-prix-spain/id-f_26113592/

Cheers

Hutch


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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #95 on: 06 Apr 2023 at 04:21 »
The next picture is from the Motorcycle Timeline website for 1925;

https://motorcycletimeline.com/1925-2/

It shows Z. Mateos at the Levante (Mataro) Circuit. (on a RA Douglas). He looks  a bit clean so maybe this is before the start rather than after his win?

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 06 Apr 2023 at 04:32 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #96 on: 06 Apr 2023 at 04:45 »
Quinones was again advertising the Douglas successes at the Levante Circuit in the Spanish Media toward the end of 1925. This advert from Gran Vida 1st November 1925 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital).

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #97 on: 06 Apr 2023 at 05:08 »
Gard Bros. in South Australia also getting in on the act in promoting the Douglas successes in Spain. From Adelaide Chronical 19th December 1925.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #98 on: 06 Apr 2023 at 05:19 »
I am still having trouble finding action pictures of Douglas machines at Levante Circuit in 1925 but here is a picture (supplied by Javier) of Pablo Aixela on a 350cc from Auto Moto.

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 06 Apr 2023 at 06:12 by Hutch »

Offline graeme

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #99 on: 07 Apr 2023 at 08:21 »
He looks  a bit clean so maybe this is before the start rather than after his win?

Particularly with no front mudguard fitted!  :D