Douglas Racers in Spain

[Hutch]

Yep....pretty obvious when you think about it :-).....especially compared to the picture of Sagrario, Whalley and Mateos AFTER the event!

 

[Hutch]

Graeme,

Sent you a PM - unrelated to this topic.

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

I don't have 100% confirmation of the rider in todays picture but I think it is Baltasar Santos on a 350cc TT model. If so he was a DNF in the races at the Levante Circuit in 1925. Hard to see the number but might be 6? (but could be quite wrong ! :-) ). I'm looking for an entry list to check.

Picture supplied by Javier and is from Auto-Moto 1925.

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

On 28th December 1924 Baltasar Santos set a 350cc Spanish National Motorcycle record at Peņa Rhin, ......

I missed this picture supplied by Javier of Baltasar Santos with the 350cc Douglas Sidecar which set the record as mentioned above. From Heraldo Deportiva 15 January 1925.

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

From Madrid Automovil issue 6 (second picture)and 11 (first picture) 1925, we have these identical pictures of Z. Mateos.

-Hutch

[Hutch]

A picture (Edit - Supposedly) of Z. Mateos (Edit:- But is it actually Sagrario ?) taken from what appears to be a similar (same?) location to the one in Reply #1 of this thread, from Madrid Automovil and Aeronautica 15 May 1925.

-Hutch

[Hutch]

Not sure the date of this picture but it is of Pablo Aixela in a regularity trial at Cataluna in 1925. Picture from Auto-Moto and supplied by Javier. Looks like Pablo is on a TS Douglas going by what appears to be a stirrup front brake (?).

That pretty much is the end of the pictures for 1925. I think the location of the pictures in reply #64 of Naure (second picture) and #91 of Whalley are very near Alto del Leon. I found this stone wall on a similar curve on Google Maps. Although the wall has been curved to suit the modern road there is evidence that it may have been straighter in the past (when looking at the corner from above). Not 100% sure but nearest I have found so far ! :-)

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

We are now up to the start of 1926 and sort of back where we started in the original post of this thread!

Douglas Racers in Spain
....
To kick things off we have a group picture of the Douglas team and their machines at Subida a las Perdices
''''''

Today we have the same picture of  Santos,  Sagrario , Z. Mateos, del Bustro and Naure (plus possibly Canto in the chair?) this time from Gran Vida January 1926 and also the corresponding advertisement from Douglas agent Quinones from the same edition.

-Hutch

[Hutch]

Three pictures of Duggies on Subida a la Cuesta De Las Perdices in 1926. These are from Heraldo Deportiva 5th Feb 1926.

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

Also from the same edition of Heraldo Deportiva as in the previous post we have Mateos on his "RA" and Naure with his OB outfit.

-Hutch

[Hutch]

Very interesting, and very weird!

......

And what, for goodness' sake, is the bike being watched by the guys up the tree? It looks a bit RA-ish, but the motor is sitting extremely high in the frame, unlike a standard RA where most of the engine lies below axle height. Could it be an S1/S2 minus its gearbox? With RA bits added? Or has someone over-retouched the photo? Mystery to me.

''''''''

Cheers

Leon

Leon,

Maybe mystery partly answered?! :-). Looks like I made a bo-boo on the date of the picture in Reply #2 - oops. It turns out this is from 30 Jan 1926 !. So Mateos's Douglas is the one shown in my previous post. It looks like a 750cc engined OB with RA wheels and brakes?? Maybe no sump so gap between lower frame rails and ground appears to be large compared to RA or TT frame?  - not sure. Will see if we can find more pictures of it.

Cheers

Hutch

[cardan]

It looks like a 750cc engined OB with RA wheels and brakes??

Or something like that. It's hard to comment when you can't quite make things out in the photo, for example is the gearbox on the engine or the frame? I don't think the frame is RA or TT. It's weird that they raced such highly non-standard bikes in Spain - it didn't happen out here in Australia.

Leon

[Hutch]

Yes Leon, no good pictures that we can look at to work out what is going on with the Mateos machine unfortunately.

I have not had much spare time lately but when I did have a spare moment, I found I had just enough information to take a stab at comparing the OB from 1924 and the RA24 frame designs (would be nice to compare to later RA models as well etc but this is all I have for a decent comparison at present).

I tried to draw the pictures as accurately as I could from the information I had. From what I can ascertain, from other information collated from a few sources, the essential (for the purpose of these comparisons) dimensions of the head clip, steering stem, fork shackles and forks of the OB and RA24 are more or less identical - therefore I made them the same (so comparing apples with apples). I have placed the axle of the rear wheel of each machine on the same vertical axis.

(Note - some will know there are two fork types for the OB one for solo, which is the one I used, and other one is for sidecar work which has less trail.)

In all the drawings the OB is in Blue and the RA24 in red (I hope this doesn't cause too much problem for those of us who are colour blind!). To help, I have repeated some of the drawings with the RA in front of the OB rather than the other way around so the differences may stand out better.

As the relative merits of the top tube design of each model, from an aesthetic and engineering perspective is often a topic of discussion I have removed them! :-).

I used nominal diameters for the wheel sizes - yes I know that in real life they are not exactly what is written on the sidewall, but I think it will do for this comparison. So 26"x3" for the OB and 28"x 2 1/2" for the RA28. (If anyone has better info on what was actually used in 1925-26 I can redo the drawings).

First up we have the OB on 26" wheels compared to the RA24 on 28" wheels. Much what we would expect. The OB has 27.5 degree rake and RA24 has 25.5 degree rake - quite modern and respectable for a touring and a sporting bike respectively. The OB has slightly longer wheelbase and the centre lines of the engines (indicated by the "bulls eyes" of them at their rearmost position) are very close. The RA has a sump and gearbox mounted a little lower than the OB (with its higher and larger fuel / oil tank) so I would suspect the OB has a higher centre of gravity than the RA24, but probably not much in it? The trail of the front wheel of the OB and RA are reasonably similar.

[Hutch]

Next we have what happens when you put 28" wheels on an OB. Obviously the steering rake angles are different and the wheelbase of the OB is still more than the RA - but in some ways they are maybe not that dissimilar. One big difference is that the OB now has quite a higher centre of gravity compared to the RA24. Would this have been a problem for Mateos on hill climbs without sharp corners? Maybe not....I don't know.

So an OB with 28" wheels may have been a cheap option for this application, especially if all the RA's were seemingly going to Australia!?

I have added a "sump" to the RA24. I don't know the exact dimensions, so just put it in roughly to indicate how putting 28" wheels on an OB makes it look like there is a lot of space under the engine compared to the RA24 with a sump.

[Hutch]

Last one (sorry to hi-jack my own thread with things other than period pictures and information of Spanish racers! :-) ).

I have knowledge of two OB's in Australia that have spent some time at the speedway in their life. These particular frames have both  been modified by extending the front down tubes and seat post tubes by about 1" or possibly more. I had an idea why this might have been done but thought I would do the drawing just to see.....and interestingly, on 28" wheels the OB now comes out remarkably similar the RA24, albeit with 27.5 degree rake rather than 25.5 degrees, so slightly less sharp turn in? Engine centre line restored to original position. The downside of the conversion of the OB's is that the chains stays (lower ones in particular) will end up with a big kink in them due to the angles of the original OB lugs - it does not look pretty and not quite how I have drawn the rear of the modified OB.

Have not seen this modification on any Spanish Machines so might have been an Australian only thing?

(If anyone has any additional information on frame dimensions etc or notes any errors I've made - please let me know! :-) )

Anyway enough side-tracking and back to real pictures again soon!

Cheers

Hutch