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Offline Hutch

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Douglas Racers in Spain
« on: 07 Oct 2022 at 04:05 »
Douglas Racers in Spain

We have previously seen pictures of some of the exploits of Douglas riders and machines in Spain on the forum, in this thread started by Leon on the 1932 TT Douglas motorcycles;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.0

Earlier this year I was looking through Archived British Newspapers at Douglas advertisements and came across a reference to a racing success in Spain by Vicente Naure. Some searching in the Spanish Archives revealed a number of newspaper articles and pictures of the exploits of Vicente and other Douglas riders in many events, mainly in the mid to late 1920’s.

My investigations so far have been slightly thwarted as some articles can only be viewed in person in Spain (...makes things a little difficult !.... -:) ) and some newspaper scans are of poor quality, but I think I have found enough pictures to at least start this new thread off.

I am hoping that some of our fellow Spanish Douglas enthusiasts will be able to contribute to this thread (hint, hint !) 😊. I apologise in advance for any dodgy translations – if you spot any errors please correct me !

To kick things off we have a group picture of the Douglas team and their machines at Subida a las Perdices, a hill climb in Barcelona oops, Madrid. From left to right we have Baltasar Santos (350cc so possibly OW or OB?), Frederico Sagario (500cc RA), Zacarias Mateos (750cc OB), A.G. del Busto (750cc OB) and Vicente Naure and passenger (OB outfit either 600cc or 750cc?). There appears to be a sump or two on the OB framed machines so some of the engines are possibly of RA origin. This picture was published in Madrid Automovil, February 1926 No.14. but the attached picture (of better quality) is from this website;

https://www.motociclismo.es/historias/carreras-retiro-otro-gp-espana_190461_102.html

It is interesting to note the gearchanges on the left side of the tank rather than the right as we would normally expect to see and also RA style brakes and possibly a sump or two on the non RA machines.  Naure’s OB appears to have the standard front OB dummy beltrim brake still in place as does that of del Busto. All front brakes appear to be disconnected - hard to see? There are a couple more pictures of these machines coming up so identification of some of the features and modifications may become a bit easier.

A website which has some interesting information on Vicente Naure’s motorcycle racing career and life can be found here;

http://www.pilotos-muertos.com/2010/NaureVicente.html

Interesting to note that Vicente was a starter in the 1925 IOM Sidecar TT on a Douglas and possibly ran as high as 3rd.

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 10 Oct 2022 at 00:18 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #1 on: 07 Oct 2022 at 04:11 »
Next up we have an interesting montage of two RA's from 1925.

These pictures came from the Spanish Newspaper Archive;

https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital

"leading" is  Zacarius Mateos (500cc RA) followed by Frederico Sagrario (350cc RA) climbing Puerto del Leon. This has been put together from two separate pictures presumably taken a minute apart – it makes for an interesting comparison, as, if the competitors were started at one minute intervals, it would appear to show the difference in performance of the 500cc version over the 350cc machine?!. It is from Heraldo Deportivo 30th April 1925 .

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #2 on: 07 Oct 2022 at 04:14 »
Next we have some very keen spectators (!) on the Cuestra del Perdices. Mateos won this event (appears to be a 600cc RA). This is from The Sphere 30th January 1924 1926.

Edit:- Correction - This picture is actually from 1926 not 1924.
-Hutch
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2023 at 05:08 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #3 on: 07 Oct 2022 at 05:00 »
This next picture was kindly sent to me by Javier in Spain. It is from the Hereldo Deportiva (Sporting Herald) 25th Jan 1926. It shows preparations for an event (standing start sprint?) organised by the Real  Moto Club of Catalunya.

The bike in front right is an OB (Edit:- del Bustro's?) but with definitely non-OB air box ! (later than '23 RA - looks to be 26 TT style). An RA (or TT? Edit - maybe single front fork spring so more likely to be RA? Hard to see) propped nonchalantly against the tree and what appears to be Naure's OB outfit nearby. Looks like Naure with his back to us (in the leathers) watching over his mount and proceedings going on in the street.

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2022 at 07:25 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #4 on: 07 Oct 2022 at 09:50 »
Very interesting, and very weird!

I like the photo/s of the RAs hill climbing, mostly because they both look like RAs. But other than these two and the RA second from the left in the first photo, the bikes are a bit mystifying - as you say very OB with all sorts of goodies mixed in.

This situation is very different from the Douglas racers in Australia at around the same time, which were mostly RAs then TTs when they came in. Very few OBs were racing in Australia in the mid-1920s.

And what, for goodness' sake, is the bike being watched by the guys up the tree? It looks a bit RA-ish, but the motor is sitting extremely high in the frame, unlike a standard RA where most of the engine lies below axle height. Could it be an S1/S2 minus its gearbox? With RA bits added? Or has someone over-retouched the photo? Mystery to me.

I wonder if it was the Douglas importer/dealer who was modifying the bikes?

Cheers

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #5 on: 08 Oct 2022 at 04:50 »
Very interesting, and very weird!
......

...And what, for goodness' sake, is the bike being watched by the guys up the tree? It looks a bit RA-ish, but the motor is sitting extremely high in the frame, unlike a standard RA where most of the engine lies below axle height. Could it be an S1/S2 minus its gearbox? With RA bits added? Or has someone over-retouched the photo? Mystery to me.

I wonder if it was the Douglas importer/dealer who was modifying the bikes?

Cheers

Leon

Good observation Leon and yes it is a bit weird compared to what we are used to seeing!. I think I possibly just focused on the RA style front brake and said "RA" ......but as you noted it could well be something else!

I think the "4HP" i.e. 600cc in the caption might also be part of the answer and the bike is possibly OB based? Some parts of the bike do also look a little "OB-ish" to me. For example the single front fork spring does appear to have a tubular cover over it like an OB?   I also wonder if it has 28" wheels and tyres front and rear, rather than the standard OB ones of 26"? Hard to tell in this picture tho' unfortunately. If this was the case, the rear frame chain stays would possibly have to be modified tho' to allow the larger diameter wheel fit? I wonder how high an OB frame would sit with RA front forks and 28" wheels? Hopefully upcoming pictures of Mateos may solve the mystery...or maybe not!

From the attached advert. the Douglas agent in Spain at this time appears to be Santiago Sanchez Quinones  - who also appears to be involved with military aircraft! I have no idea if he was modifying the Douglas machines tho'.

cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #6 on: 12 Oct 2022 at 00:26 »
I have not found many pictures of Douglas racers in the early 1920's in Spain, but thanks to Javier's help, we have managed to put together a small collection of pictures for 1923. Yes I know some of them are "not-so-exciting" 2 3/4hp machines ( :-) ) but I think the pictures help to illustrate the rapid progression of Douglas racing motorcycle in Spain from the introduction of the RA model and its success in the IOM Senior and Sidecar TT's of 1923.

To start things off for 1923 we have Antonio Adȧ on a 2 3/4hp who won a silver medal in a regularity trial - location unknown but I will do some more digging and see if I can work out where the event was. This picture is from Auto Moto No.69 1923.

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 13 Oct 2022 at 00:00 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #7 on: 13 Oct 2022 at 00:10 »
We all have possibly seen pictures of,  mainly French (?), massively engined motorcycles ahead of a "Stayer" on a bicycle in Motor Paced Cycling events from the early days of motorcycling - but I had not seen a Douglas performing this task until I saw this picture sent to me by Javier! Here we have Luis Arana on a 2 3/4hp Douglas pacing a cyclist......tho' I suspect maybe the cyclist is pushing the Duggie along? (...just joking! :-) ). Picture is from Heraldo Deportiva 15th May 1923.

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Doug

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #8 on: 13 Oct 2022 at 13:26 »
Ah, but is the Douglas Racing or Pacing? Might need to change the title of this thread!  :)

-Doug

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #9 on: 14 Oct 2022 at 00:34 »
Doug,

Yes maybe a title change is required! (:-) )  I have only seen this one pacing picture so we are fairly safe (?) I think and it was a segue into the next picture of the same person and possibly the same 2 3/4hp Douglas (hard to see but number plate looks the same?) in a regularity trial from Madrid to Salamanca and return. This is from the Graphic World (Mundo Grafico) 16th May 1923. I have seen this picture before so has been published elsewhere, I will see if I can find it.

Cheers

Hutch



« Last Edit: 14 Oct 2022 at 04:17 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #10 on: 17 Oct 2022 at 00:20 »
One more picture of Luis de Arana from Heraldo Deportiva 1923 ,sent to me by Javier. Some more sporting machines coming up next!

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #11 on: 19 Oct 2022 at 08:40 »
As promised we have a couple more pictures from 1923 that indicate the start of a period of major racing success in Spain for Douglas following the introduction of Bailey's RA model and wins in the 1923 Senior TT and Sidecar TT events at IOM.

Jim Whalley set fastest lap in the wet 1923 IOM Senior TT, then on 2nd July went on to win the 500cc class in the 1923 French Grand Prix. He travelled with Alec Bennet and Freddie Dixon to Spain in early July and went on to win the Spanish 12 Hour Road Race at Guadarrama - Navacerrada in front of 45,000 spectators in record time. Jim was certainly on a roll in mid 1923!

Here we have a picture of Whalley and Bennett in the race. 12 hours flat out, in summer in Spain on 1923 motorcycles must have taken a superhuman effort!

Picture supplied by Javier and is from Heraldo Deportiva 25 July 1923

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #12 on: 19 Oct 2022 at 08:53 »
The second picture is an interesting one of Dixon with a tilting sidecar RA at the 12 hour road race at Guadarrama - Navacerrada in 1923.

You can see what looks like the lever for the tilting sidecar in the picture (?) ....I have no idea if this is the actual 1923 Sidecar TT winning machine tho'!

I found this picture while searching the Spanish Archives and at first glance the number "23" caught my attention, but of course it was Parker's outfit that carried the number "23" in the 1925 Sidecar TT (which he won) - Dixon's machine carried number "55" in the 1923 Sidecar TT.

Picture is from Heraldo Deportiva 25 July 1923 and was supplied by Javier (better copy than the one I found!).

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 20 Oct 2022 at 23:20 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #13 on: 24 Oct 2022 at 02:17 »
I am still trying to find out how Bennett and Dixon faired in the Spanish 12 Hour race of 1924 but in the mean time we have a selection of pictures of Douglas Racers from 1924. Most are from Javier and plus a couple of additional ones found in the Spanish Archives.

The next picture is from 5th October 1924 Heraldo Deportiva and showing Equipe Douglas at San Sebastián. The riders were entered in the 500cc Class -  Mateos (1st), Anstice (2nd), Whalley (3rd), Naure (4th) and Santos (5th). All appear to be riding RA models - tho' the tank and top frame tube on the middle one does appear to be different to the others? . Unfortunately the picture is not very clear.

Cheers,

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #14 on: 24 Oct 2022 at 05:50 »
Note:- The advertisement in post https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=9283.msg36707#msg36707  ,the results listed are for the San Sebastian race 1924 depicted in the previous post. Equipe Douglas are shown in front of the scoreboard.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #15 on: 24 Oct 2022 at 23:58 »
Another couple of pictures from the 1924 San Sebastian Race. These two pictures are of the same scene (identical picture I think). They shows Mateos at the Douglas pits refuelling. In attendance is the Prince of Austria and his brothers. First picture is from Heraldo Deportiva 5th October 1924 and shows the score board to the right and the second from Gran Vida.

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #16 on: 26 Oct 2022 at 00:27 »
Winners are grinners!. Mateos on the left, congratulated by the local Douglas agent Quinones with Whalley on the right after the San Sebastian Race 1924, picture from Heraldo Deportiva 5th Oct 1925 (supplied by Javier).

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #17 on: 01 Nov 2022 at 01:40 »
A picture of Mateos at speed during the 1924 San Sebastian race - from Auto-Moto No. 189,

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #18 on: 02 Nov 2022 at 04:19 »
A picture taken during the San Sebastian race 1924. The building in the background appears similar to the one in the above picture (reply #17), so looks like it is taken from almost the same location near the Score Board / Pit area. From New World 26 / 9 / 1924. Found in;

https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital

Looks like a Duggie out in front, but appears to be cruising, possibly about to pit at the end of  a lap of the circuit?

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 02 Nov 2022 at 05:07 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #19 on: 03 Nov 2022 at 00:13 »
Nearly at the end of the pictures found so far of the 1924 San Sebastian motorcycle races. This one supplied by Javier and taken from the start / score board / pits area but from a different perspective from the previous two. Looks like a Douglas (?) rider is indicating his intention to pit? I note there are what looks like tram tracks on the left (their right) hand side? From Gran Vida No. 255 September 1924.

Cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #20 on: 03 Nov 2022 at 23:32 »
Today we have another picture from Auto-Moto 189 1924 showing the weighing of the motorcycles pre the San Sebastian race on the "dock scale" which I presume means they weighed them at the port at San Sebastian. A coupe of RA's on the left waiting to be weighed. I'm not sure yet how the weight factored into the rules of this competition. The distances raced for each class of machine increased for each capacity class. This makes it difficult to assess the relative performance of the RA compared to say the 1000cc machines.

-Hutch

Edit: Added better version of weigh in picture (from Javier)
« Last Edit: 05 Dec 2023 at 06:07 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #22 on: 04 Nov 2022 at 23:23 »
........
The next picture is from 5th October 1924 Heraldo Deportiva and showing Equipe Douglas at San Sebastián. The riders were entered in the 500cc Class -  Mateos (1st), Anstice (2nd), Whalley (3rd), Naure (4th) and Santos (5th). All appear to be riding RA models - tho' the tank and top frame tube on the middle one does appear to be different to the others? . Unfortunately the picture is not very clear.
.......

I found another version of this picture of the Douglas Team at the 1924 San Sebastian race in New World 26th September 1924. Maybe very slightly clearer (?) but still not brilliant.

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #23 on: 07 Nov 2022 at 02:55 »
I was looking for a map of the Lasarte circuit circa 1924. There are quite a few examples on the web but I did find this "labour - of - love" blog that has maps of many famous motor racing circuits around the world. Included is one of the Lasarte Circuit;

https://oscarplada.blogspot.com/search?q=lasarte

Going back to earlier in 1924 Douglas had some success with several podium finishes at the Autodroame Terramar at Sitges - a large concrete banked circuit built in 1923.

https://www.autodrom-terramar.com/en/

First up we have a picture of team Douglas - the RA of Whalley and 350cc (RW?) of Alȧ, are flanking two older "S1" 500cc models. Picture supplied by Javier and from Auto-Moto May 1924.

(aside: Later in his career, Eric Spencer raced DT Douglas machines in the early days of speedway in the UK)

EDIT and Correction:- note order of riders in caption does not match those shown in picture. Whalley is 11, Alȧ is 5, Spencer is 15 and Santos is 16 see reply #34. So 350cc Douglas is S1 not RA

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2022 at 07:14 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #24 on: 07 Nov 2022 at 22:39 »
Next we have a picture (from Heraldo Deportiva 25th May 1924) of the start of the Gran Primo at Sitges - Terramar Autodrome. Whalley is No. 11 (looks like "1" in the team picture above), Spencer is No. 15, Santos No.16 and Alȧ is on No. 5 but is obscured by other riders - he is maybe at the rear of the other 3 Douglas riders? (maybe so he can slipstream the more powerful machines of the Douglas team?)

The race distances were 250cc - 300km, 350cc - 350km, 500cc - 400km, and 1000cc - 400km.

Alȧ was 2nd in 350cc class (only two entrants but a close finish),  Santos 2nd and Spencer 3rd in the 500cc class (both on the older S1 models).

Whalley was favourite to win his class but suffered from a (possibly) simple problem with a valve which put him out.

-Hutch


Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #25 on: 08 Nov 2022 at 02:02 »
In this report on the potential preservation of the Sitges - Terramar Autodrome, there are what appears to be two very short clips of the start of the 1924 motorcycle race, as there are fleeting glimpses of what appears to be an RA. The two excerpts are at approx. 2:13 and 2:24. Hard to catch, but it does appear to indicate that some original footage of this event exists somewhere - I will have a look and see if I can find it :-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2IpBgeEpYI


cheers

Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #26 on: 08 Nov 2022 at 21:52 »
Another picture of Team Douglas at Sitges- Terramar Autodrome from Heraldo Deportiva 25th May 1924 (supplied by Javier). Nearly the same picture as shown in reply #23 above, but not quite.

-Hutch

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #27 on: 09 Nov 2022 at 01:21 »
It's a pity that the photo quality is so poor: the S1s seem to have air boxes and twin carburettors, in which case they are probably the type of bike campaigned at Brooklands by Eve and others from 1921 https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27530#msg27530

As I pointed out in the S L Bailey thread, these bikes were pretty rubbish when it came to road events - because of their poor mixture across the range - but would have been good at Terramar Autodrome which seems a bit Brooklands-esque with lots of full-throttle running.

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #28 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 02:27 »
There are better copies of some of the Douglas photos available on the web https://www.kutxateka.eus/Search/objects?search=douglas (There are other photos found by searching with other search terms.)

Unfortunately the photos at kutxateka seem to show mostly the "British" RAs (Whalley et al.) and these are mostly to catalogue spec, even still wearing their British number plates. However amongst the RAs there are a couple of deviations from standard: the bike with the larger tank that fills the frame and another with side-spring fork.

I'd love to see some decent photos of the weirdos, particularly the S1 racers.

Cheers

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #29 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 02:32 »
In another photo, you can see that the "big tank" bike is RA - the gearbox is close-coupled to the engine.

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #30 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 04:32 »
Excellent Leon!, I knew there were probably some better pictures somewhere :-) I think the machine with the funny tank was ridden by Santos but will check the pictures again when I get a chance (bit snowed under at the moment).

I have been pondering your comments on the mid-range (i.e. non-flatout) performance of the S1's in relation to the airbox design (i.e. plenum chamber) , balancing tubes and pre TT AMAC carbies (was the "TT" Amac introduced in 1924?). It is an interesting comment and I wonder if the S1's at Terramar where still using the AMACs from say 1921-22? As you say pity the pictures are relatively poor quality otherwise we could probably see what they were using. It seems AMAC did develop their TT carburettors from about 1924 onwards but were needle-less until possibly 1928 when the amalgamation occurred ? I would have thought the lack of needle would not have helped tuning for mid range performance?

Cheers

Hutch


Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #31 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 05:43 »
E.W. Spencer, on one of the S1s at the Terramar Autodrome in reply 23, was a regular on an S1 at Brooklands in 1922. Early in 1922 Pullin had broken 100mph on his, with twin carbs and an airbox, so this was the current Douglas tech in that year. The RA was new for the 1923 TT, with the new AMAC 10TT23 carburettors.

Carburettors aside, you wouldn't want to be racing an S1 on a road circuit in 1924 just based on its high centre of mass, spindly frame and poor brakes.

Anyway, I'm not sure where Spencer fitted in, Douglas team wise, but let's bet that his bike at Terramar in 1924 was more-or-less the same bike he had been using at speed events since 1922.

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #32 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 06:02 »
Is Spencer the old bloke on No. 5? If so, I doubt he was later a dirt track rider! He actually won some stuff at Brooklands, and was mentioned in the same breath as Pullin in Douglas adverts. There is a photo of him winning a speed trial on his S1 in the Motor Cycle in October 1922, but the photo isn't clear enough to see if his S1 had twin carbs in 1922. I suspect it did.

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #33 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 06:20 »
Leon, the last picture from your post above shows Alȧ on number 5 lined up behind the other 3 Douglas machines so my guess from reply #24 is confirmed :-). An extra issue with the S1 may have been the spindly crank? Not sure about the spindly frame as part of one I picked up seemed to weigh quite a bit! Frame cracking issues seemed to plague the OHV models (including RA) for a while in the mid 1920's - not quite sure how Douglas resolved that other than going to a thicker gauge of tubing?

Ah! - AMAC TT carby released in 1923 but I didn't find it listed in any of the AMAC catalogues I have (i.e. 1923-1928). So maybe only sold to general customers from 1924 onwards?

Spencer went on to do well in Trials events in the mid-late 1920's with Douglas (some info in Clew TBT) but I have not looked into his career yet. I have a couple of pictures of him in action in Spain that were coming up next.

EDIT:- You replied about Spencer while I was writing this reply!

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2022 at 06:55 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #34 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 06:22 »
I will double check the race numbers......

EDIT:- From Heraldo Deportiva 25 May 1924 the rider numbers were listed in the text as;

Whalley 11, Spencer 15, Santos 16 and Ala 5 (on 350cc S1 not RW as I queried in reply #23).

The order of the riders listed in the caption  in the picture in post #23 does not appear to match the order they are lined up in - so so looks like I mixed up Santos and Alȧ in reply #23 but might have it correct in reply #24 - don't believe what you read in the press!

The person on No 15 looks young and I think is Spencer.

-Hutch


« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2022 at 07:03 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #35 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 10:13 »
Two pictures of Eric Spencer riding a RA at the 1924 Guadarrama 12 Hour race. He was 2nd in the 500cc class with just over 735km travelled. Mateos on another Douglas was 3rd with 705km travelled. (The winner in the 500cc class was Vidal on a Norton who covered 775km).

From Heraldo Deportiva 15th July 1924 (supplied by Javier).

-Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #36 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 10:23 »
In another photo, you can see that the "big tank" bike is RA - the gearbox is close-coupled to the engine.

Leon

Hi Leon,

I wonder if the "big tank" is a modified OB one - made to fit the RA frame?

The picture of Spencer's RA above is not very clear, but there is something strange with his front brake? Friction material removed or something else? Hard to see - hopefully we can find a better picture of it.

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2022 at 10:31 by Hutch »

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #37 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 13:54 »
Quote
The picture of Spencer's RA above is not very clear, but there is something strange with his front brake? Friction material removed or something else?


The 'skinny' radial depth land slightly larger diameter looks more like the dummy belt rim brake of the OB model, though other aspects of the bike (airbox) do look like RA. In the preceding picture "passage through San Rafel" during the 1924 Guadarrama 12 Hour race it looks like there might not be an RA sump under the engine. So perhaps a bitza or hybrid racer. There were some RA models with the oil compartment within the petrol tank.

-Doug


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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #38 on: 10 Nov 2022 at 22:13 »
...
The 'skinny' radial depth land slightly larger diameter looks more like the dummy belt rim brake of the OB model, though other aspects of the bike (airbox) do look like RA.......

-Doug

My first thoughts were the same as yours, that the front brake was OB dummy belt rim, but it almost looks like the brake block is sitting on the rim rather than in a V like the OB one is.....very hard to see, so I think you are correct and it is most likely OB. These grainy old pictures keep us guessing :-) There appears to be much "mix and matching" in the Spanish racers....!

Cheers

Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #39 on: 11 Nov 2022 at 01:28 »
Ah! - AMAC TT carby released in 1923 but I didn't find it listed in any of the AMAC catalogues I have (i.e. 1923-1928). So maybe only sold to general customers from 1924 onwards?
The AMAC TT23 and TT24 were similar and new for the 1923 and 1924 TTs, respectively, but both were carried over to Super Sports bikes like the RA. The TT25 was new (and quite different) for the 1925 TT, and was used on all sorts of Super Sports bikes until end of the 1920s, even though there were new model TT racing carbs every year. So if you find an AMAC TT27 it likely comes from a 1927 works racer of some sort. In the 1930s AMAL carried on the year-by-year TT carb thing, so there were TT32 and TT34 models...

Leon

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #40 on: 11 Nov 2022 at 04:31 »
Thanks for the info Leon!


cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 11 Nov 2022 at 06:13 by Hutch »

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #41 on: 12 Nov 2022 at 22:48 »
Victor Clarence (Edit:- see below) Anstice started in the 12 Hour race at Gaudarrama but failed to finish. Here he is being assisted by Naure, but maybe Clarence's Anstice's face say's it all...?. From Heraldo Deportiva 15 July 1924. I have not found any other pictures of Clarence Anstice at the Guadarrama 12 hour, so do not know for certain what he what model Douglas he was riding (The unusual view of the bike had me at first wondering if this was indeed a Douglas (:-) ) but I think it is RA due to the way the rear exhaust pipe is shaped and what looks like possibly a RA type disc on left of rear wheel?)

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 13 Nov 2022 at 07:54 by Hutch »

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #42 on: 13 Nov 2022 at 07:30 »
Searching the name "Victor Clarence" didn't reveal much until I realised they left the surname "Antstice" off in the article and picture !

-Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #43 on: 09 Dec 2022 at 05:26 »
During 1924 Douglas motorcycles continued to perform well in some reliability / regularity trials in Spain.

On 1st May 1924 the Heraldo Desportiva reported the results of a team trial over a distance of 211km organised by the Real Moto Club of Cataluña . The Douglas team – Equipo Blanco or White team, consisted of No.31 Luis Soler Saladrigas, No. 32, Van Dyke, No. 33 Antonio Alȧ (with Sidecar) and (as each team appears to have included an Autocycle of some description) No 34, Arturo Gaston.

Equipo Blanco finished second. Picture supplied by Javier.
 
Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 09 Dec 2022 at 19:36 by Hutch »

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #44 on: 13 Dec 2022 at 05:31 »
Douglas mounted riders Antonio Alȧ and Pablo Aixelȧ were 1st and 2nd respectively in the 350cc class at the Subida a La Mata (hillclimb) as reported in Heraldo Dportiva 25th August 1924.

(Picture Supplied by Javier).

-Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #45 on: 14 Dec 2022 at 22:29 »
Here we have Antonio Alȧ yet again doing well in regularity Trials - winning a Gold Medal. This time mounted on a CW Douglas in the Barcelona - Madrid event as reported by Auto-Moto in June 1924.

(Picture Supplied by Javier)

Cheers

Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #46 on: 01 Jan 2023 at 07:10 »
I'm not sure the exact date of this picture from Auto-Moto in 1924, but we have that man Antonio Alȧ yet again! This time winning a gold medal. (picture supplied by Javier).

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #47 on: 01 Jan 2023 at 07:15 »
The number "1" (and the head wear of the rider) shown in this picture is similar to that on the Douglas from 1923 shown in reply #6 above, but this one is from 1924 (from Auto-Moto, supplied by Javier). In this event Antonio Alȧ won a silver cup.

-cheers Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #48 on: 01 Jan 2023 at 07:30 »
Pity I have not found a better copy of this picture :-( Unfortunately not good scanning. Zacarias Mateos beside his RA from The Illustrated Union 29th June 1924.

-Hutch

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Re: Douglas Racers in Spain
« Reply #49 on: 02 Jan 2023 at 23:51 »
The Matteos RA is interesting. Like the RAs that arrived in Australia during 1924, it has the sloping-top-tube frame with the flat RA fuel tank and sump under the engine for the oil. Presumably this one is a 500, and hence an RA, or if a 350 it would be an RW. The 350 TW used the same style frame, but had a tank that filled the frame for fuel and oil, hence no sump.

I've not seen this frame in a UK photo, so fair to say most were exported.

Can I go back to the first photo in the first post in this thread? https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=9283.msg36697#msg36697

Naure rode a 600cc Douglas in the 1925 Sidecar TT on the Isle of Man - pretty much a "TT Douglas" as we might find in the 1926 catalogue. However his bike a different from the others: according to the Motor Cycle (11 June 1925, p851) "Naure's sidecar outfit has the gear change on the near side, a foot operated clutch, and twist grip ignition control on the left handle-bar."

Interesting, then, that three of the bikes (the RA second from the left and the two OBs) have their gear change on the left, like Naure's 1925 TT bike. However it seems unlikely that any of these are Naure's 1925 TT bike, which had a drum front brake. https://www.imuseum.im/search/collections/archive/mnh-museum-539812.html

Leon

[Edit to spell "Naure" correctly!]
« Last Edit: 03 Jan 2023 at 01:51 by cardan »