1909 2 3/4 HP For Sale

[Red]

Click on the link below for the advert on Car and Classic

https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1418096

Roy

[cardan]

Well that's pretty nice - lovely to see such an original machine.

I wonder, though, if it is really a 1909 model. Without numbers, I might be guessing 1911? The curved shaping to the rear of the tank and the drop-down rear rack mounts (to allow a saddle with a drop-down carriage, like the Brooks fitted) were both new-for-1911 features.

There was still a single-speeder on offer in 1912, but it used chain drive to a countershaft on the pedal axle.

So maybe a 1911 Model D rather than a 1909 Model B? Still extremely nice.

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

That inlet manifold attachment was used on the 1910-12 engines. 1910 was also the year they switched from screw in cylinders to bolt on, which this has. Over on the sellers own website they give (and in some of the additional photos you can see) the engine number 2335. That would put it up in the 1911 territory. The frame number is given as 550, and that would be 1910. Physically I do not think there is much difference between a 1909 and a 1910 frame, but they did make a noticeable change for 1911 where the lower chain stay meet the saddle tube that this does not have. However 1910 petrol tanks are supposedly faceted and the front and rear where as in 1911 , as you noted, they changed to curved surfaces like this one. A 1911 model D single-speed (last years leftovers) would be a good guess, but according to the catalog image (caveat-emptor!) those did use the 1911 frame. Also, I think the number of 550 is far too low to make it into 1911. So looks like a mixture of years that may have been in company for some time now. 1910 frame, and 1911 engine and tank. Maybe it went back to the factory when it was but a few years old to be updated, maybe it got restored seventy years ago by an owner.

-Doug

Ref: Identifying old Douglas motorcycles. Part 1: 1907-26 Models 2-3/4hp, 3-1/2, and 4hp

[cardan]

Hi Doug,

That's a good call about the inlet manifold and cylinders - fair to say the bike's not 1909.

Re the frame, a couple of snippets from The Motor Cycle of the day. The "low" frame for 1911 (as used on the Model E) was first seen in September 1911 when two Douglases, with two-speed gearboxes and the "low" pedal-less frame won the Sutton Bank Hill Climb and were promptly disqualified, since the bikes were not available to the public. There was heated correspondence, including from W. Wilson Douglas who pointed out that the bikes were standard 1911 models, for which orders were being taken.

On to the Show. Surprisingly the "standard" Douglas frame was the "old" (1910 pattern) frame with the pedal bracket. It was ready to fit the gearbox if required. To back this up, there were (wait for it) 21 Douglas motorcycles at the Show in November, and 18 of them had pedals. So there were only three Model Es on show - with the low frame, two speed gear, footboards, and clutch. Elsewhere it states that the clutch was an option on the Model E. I think (if you solve the puzzle from the numbers below) there must have been 15 single-speeders with pedals, three two speeders with pedals, and three two speeders with clutch and no pedals, on the Douglas stand in November 1910. Some were what we call "Ladies model", but it was made clear that the drop frame bike was suitable for ladies or gentlemen.

Back to the bike for sale - I'd be checking the frame number. I fancy it is mostly as it left the factory.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Physically I do not think there is much difference between a 1909 and a 1910 frame, but they did make a noticeable change for 1911 where the lower chain stay meet the saddle tube that this does not have.

Sorry - I failed to understand this. Yes indeed, I see now that in 1909 and 1910 the lower frame rail goes straight through the pedal bracket to the rear stays (see below). Thus the 1911 frame - like the one for sale- is quite different. The "standard" 1911 frame with pedals illustrated in the previous post is, like the model E, "low" compared with the 1909 and 1910 models.

This also explains why the drop-down carrier braces are needed.

Cheers

Leon