Author Topic: Late 20s Douglas DT5, SW5 and CW (Read 9408 times)

tidyrob69 · « **on:** 03 Nov 2017 at 01:53 »

Hi,

I currently don't own a Douglas but have been looking for one since seeing some in the flesh at Kop hill and Old Warden. I think they're fantastic looking bikes that I guess are non conventional to others of that era.
I don't know that much about them or the different models, only what I've browsed over on the net. The DT5 and SW5 caught my eye but from what I can gather these were competition bikes and not for the road.
My first question would be the obvious, does anyone have one for sale or know of one for sale?
The only 20s Douglas I've come across is this CW which looks good in the photos, the only issue could be is its in Hungary.

http://www.motomaniastore.com/motors/details/douglas-cw-1925-350cc-140

Also this a little closer to home...
http://www.andybuysbikes.com/bikeshtml/6728dgl.html#

My second question would be, Is that a reasonable amount to pay for a CW in that condition?

Thanks for your time,

Rob

Doug · « **Reply #1 on:** 03 Nov 2017 at 02:22 »

Rob,

The SW5 was the road going version of the DT5. Not many were made originally, but many DT5s have been converted into SW5s since. In fact most SW5s that you are likely to see are converted DTs. They are expensive to restore mechanically as most of the internals have been used up in competition. Also, the majority of the gearboxes found are the ultra-close DT ratios and not very suitable for road use. They do not have enough spread in ratios to permit a decent first and top gear; one or the other has to be severely compromised.

On the other hand, Douglas made oodles of the 2-3/4hp models, of which the CW was the final iteration of. There is a world of difference in performance between the two! Between those two is the 350cc EW, which Douglas also made a fair number of and come up for sale regularly. They have some of the more modern features like all chain drive, clutch, and drum brakes (which sometimes work); yet still have that vintage flat-tank look.

There is a photo gallery by model and a model timeline here on this forum that will help familiarize you with the many models Douglas made from 1907 to 1957.

-Doug

cardan · « **Reply #2 on:** 03 Nov 2017 at 05:05 »

Surprisingly a DT5 sold recently at auction for more-or-less the same price as the CWs on offer!

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24131/lot/188/

I think the owner would have been disappointed with the sale price, but a happy buyer no doubt. Auctions are funny things.

Leon

tck · « **Reply #3 on:** 04 Nov 2017 at 07:35 »

I have a CW and if you don't live in a rural flat area forget it
I have only once made it up sunrising hill and that was the year a strong wind was behind me
Last year I did not even crest the kop so it's time for some work on the valves.
Having said that the 2 speed no clutch no brakes bike is a joy to ride and I would not part with it and if you want a veteran ride for less money a late CW is a good bet
My wife has a EW made a year later 26 she loves it a capable bike can use it anywhere it's a bit like the hinkley triumph factory making speed triples and spring hub speed twins at the same time.

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #4 on:** 07 Nov 2017 at 11:01 »

Thanks Doug, that makes sense. I've had a look through the timeline and have more of an idea.
The SW5 would be the one to go for then but i assume the small numbers produced would warrant a high price if one were to crop up.
I like that DT5 you posted cardan, i guess there was only one person bidding on it at that auction?
All the flat tank bikes look good but ok, if i'm going to ride it then the CW isn't going to be practical, there are a few hills where i am, your description made me smile tck and that's interesting they made bikes with such performance differences but i guess they were built to a cost for the road and the cost not being so much of an issue on the OHV competition bikes. An EW sounds ideal then, capable of being ridden and not too rare. Would it be unreasonable to expect to pay around 10k for one?
Just out of interest, with the exposed valve gear on the sw and dt, does anyone know if there has been any issues with wear or corrosion there? I only ask as it looks like anything flung up from the front tire would end up straight on the head.
Thanks for your time chaps.

Chris (Sprinter) · « **Reply #5 on:** 07 Nov 2017 at 16:07 »

Hello Rob,

I wondered if you had spotted this EW for sale at the moment.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C931517

Hopefully it can give you an idea of price. I have no doubt that some will call it expensive and some will call it cheap.
As long as you are happy with what you are buying!

Chris

Doug · « **Reply #6 on:** 07 Nov 2017 at 16:36 »

Rob,

The CW did come standard with a 3-speed trans and a clutch (same as the EW), which was an option of the earlier more deluxe 2-3/4hp models. Like the EW it was all-chain drive, so no belt slip to worry about. The performance between a CW and a EW is probably not all that much different. The EW engine is of the same displacement and was a little more efficient due to a slightly higher compression ratio. Against that the EW was built a little more robustly and so carried a little more weight. The EW will rev a little higher before going 'bang', so if you do live in a hilly area and expect to be charging hills in indirect gears or spend time flat out on an A-road with a lorry breathing down your tailpipe, then The EW is still the better choice. But in more modest terrain the CW probably does not sacrifice much to the EW. I borrowed a CW for the LDMCC Cavalcade run around the hills south of Bristol and it performed just fine other than a spell of carburetor icing.

I also borrowed a EW for an Australian rally, and it is a fine machine too. As a first-time machine for entry into the world of Douglas I would still go with the EW. There just seem to be more bits and pieces around for them and it is an improved design over the 2-3/4hp (it was pretty much all new). But if you see a pretty CW for sale for the right price, I wouldn't exclude it based on performance; it shouldn't be that much further behind the EW in power. If you have really steep hills in you riding area, then maybe not. If you are use to postwar machines, or 500s, then either will seem a little anemic!

The prewar ohv Dougies were always considered a more sporting and exclusive models in the Douglas range. And likewise today with collectors. They rarely have problems with hills, except when coming back down and you need brakes!

-Doug

cardan · « **Reply #7 on:** 07 Nov 2017 at 21:14 »

http://www.motomaniastore.com/motors/details/douglas-cw-1925-350cc-140

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #8 on:** 08 Nov 2017 at 07:17 »

Thanks Doug, that's very helpful.
I had seen that one Chris, I messaged and phoned on the day the advert went up but the number didn't work and I didn't get a reply via email, the ad has now gone.
Hi cardan, that one is in Hungary. The link for it was in my original post, they can ship it over for £500. It looks to be in good order but parting with £11k without seeing it makes me a little uneasy.
The andybuys bikes ew looks in reasonable condition but seems to be overpriced at £10500 going by what has sold.
Rob

cardan · « **Reply #9 on:** 08 Nov 2017 at 08:21 »

Always the problem Rob - how do you know if you're buying something worthwhile? I've had particularly bad experiences with bikes "restored" by others, and without being on a rally with a bike, and seeing it perform first hand, I don't know how to assess a bike in terms of value. AT the very least, a close first-hand inspection

From what I can see, the Motomania bike is a very high quality restoration - I doubt I've seen a better-looking CW in terms of its parts and restoration. If its internal condition matches the external, I can understand a higher-than-usual price. It's a very lovely vintage bike, and I'd gladly ride it, or have it in my lounge room.

Re the Tiernan EW, it's pretty tired-looking on the outside, and without some kind of assurance that it's in perfect mechanical condition I'm at a bit of a loss to see why it would have a price tag over GBP10,000. What are those giant wing nuts under the carb and mag controls? Has someone been riding it with a bit of cloth tape for handlebar grips? I'd ride it (if it didn't break down and would go up hills), but I'd never allow it in the lounge room. Nor would I outlay a large amount of money to buy it.

Cheers

Leon

tck · « **Reply #10 on:** 08 Nov 2017 at 09:42 »

I have been passing Framingham and had a good look at that EW it is not bad and Andy is one of the better dealers, the price is high but I would think haggling is an option. If you go the EW way its worth asking if the layshaft mod has been done (search here for details that's where I found out about it).

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #11 on:** 09 Nov 2017 at 16:10 »

I might have a look at the Tiernan bike just to gauge an idea. He's not to far from David Silvers Honda Museum so it wouldn't be a wasted journey. What do you think it would be worth? Judging by what others have sold for I would guess around £8k? The one in Hungary I think i need to forgot about as its an earlier CW and its too much hassle and risk to get it shipped over.

tck · « **Reply #12 on:** 09 Nov 2017 at 16:28 »

If you pay the Museum entry fee you may be short on funds for the bike :-)

cardan · « **Reply #13 on:** 09 Nov 2017 at 19:43 »

Re price: google "bonhams dougls" and you'll get things like this: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22720/lot/242/

8000GBP should buy a lot of motorcycle.

Leon

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Nov 2017 at 02:45 »

hi.
I did see that bike cardan but it has no paperwork and has numbers missing on the bike. It also looks quite rough and the sale was a few years ago, I don't know if auction house fees were on top of that too. So if it was in better condition with all numbers and paperwork and sold privately, judging by what has sold previously i think around 7k would be ok.
I think the one at Andy Tiermans would be reasonable at 8k considering its trade.
I had a look tck for info on the layshaft mod, i couldn't really see too much, is it a bronze bearing being replaced by a roller one?
Rob

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Nov 2017 at 10:40 »

I managed to find some more info on the lay shaft mod. From what I can work out the gearbox suffers from jumping out of gear. The club sells a complete new lay shaft to replace the original.
I assume it can't be seen externally whether this mod has been done or not, I'll need to just take whoever's word for it.
Rob

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Nov 2017 at 13:29 »

I've still not had the time to go up to see the EW at Andy Tiermans.

I have noticed on other EWs there is an extra lever on the left but not on this one. Is that a decompression lever?

Is there anything else i should be paying close attention to when i go to see it?

All going well I should be heading up tomorrow.

Please see photo attached.

Thanks

Doug · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Nov 2017 at 13:54 »

Rob,

One inverted lever is for the front brake and the other the exhaust valve lifter. The clutch would be a 'conventional' lever that clamped to the left handlebar, supplied by Bowden. Probably the restorer could not find one of those, and hooked the clutch cable up to the lever for the exhaust valve.

-Doug

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Nov 2017 at 15:39 »

Ah ok Doug, thanks. Hopefully that's the case otherwise it'll be hard to stop and start without a clutch. I guess the valve lifter is not essential then.

graeme · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Nov 2017 at 20:00 »

What might the little lever under the RH handlebar be for I wonder?

eddie · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Nov 2017 at 21:22 »

They look like large wing nuts holding the throttle/choke and advance/retard levers!

Eddie.

tidyrob69 · « **Reply #21 on:** 06 Nov 2018 at 15:56 »

I'm back looking at EWs for sale, I've been distracted with a few other projects- finding a dolls head box to replace the Burman box on our 16H, isolastics on a Commando, new con rod and piston on newer mx bike, crankshaft oil seals on an RD250 and re assembling My 70s Husqvarna wr250- most of all this is work in progress... still!
I looked at the EW for sale at Tiermans and it was ok but needed too much work to make tidy- tank and frame needed re painting, rear wheel needed restoring, decomp missing etc. It looked a good usable bike but I wanted something more presentable and I really could do without another project.
I saw this on Car and classic but taking into account it needs parts re plating It again seems too pricey.
I may go and look it nonetheless.

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1025866