Author Topic: S.L. Bailey (Read 88851 times)

Hutch · « **Reply #150 on:** 18 Oct 2019 at 01:20 »

Later in November, Bailey has been busy and has scored some records for Douglas (28th November 1912 in The Motor Cycle). So maybe he is now ready for the match race? But now on Dec 5th news is filtering through to the press about the new OHV creation by Bradshaw and Bailey.........

Hutch · « **Reply #151 on:** 18 Oct 2019 at 01:27 »

..and finally on the 19th news of success on the Bradshaw / Bailey Douglas.

As Roger pointed out, ABC had limited staff, but they managed to turn out a record breaker in very short time! Also Bailey has (as Leon has pointed out earlier in this thread) appeared to have made the switch from Colmore to Douglas.

For the last issue of the year, 26th December, it is reported that in the next issue of The Motor Cycle (1st issue of 1913) would be a report on steel cylinders. I unfortunately don’t have any copies of the first half of 1913 for the Motor Cycle – does anyone have a copy of the relevant issue or anything else related to the Douglas OHV engines from that period??

A lot happened in quite a short time period! (...and i hope I got it in the correct chronological order - please let me know if I have it mixed up and I will fix it!)

Cheers

Ian

Eric S · « **Reply #152 on:** 18 Oct 2019 at 07:33 »

What is a "Singer ex pouent"?

Hutch · « **Reply #153 on:** 18 Oct 2019 at 22:11 »

Typographic error, should be exponent, i.e. someone who supports a particular cause, belief, etc. : someone who is known for a particular method, style

Doug · « **Reply #154 on:** 19 Oct 2019 at 20:03 »

Well in French it would be "Singer, of course" which is almost the same thing!

-Doug

Brooklander · « **Reply #155 on:** 27 Oct 2019 at 12:58 »

Ian,

I see that you have posted the protracted exchange of notes in TMC about the delay in getting SLB's modified engine to the starting line. I have been looking at Bradshaw's history contained in the minutes of ABC Road Motors from 1914 to 1919. His motorcycle engines were always late but he was very good with coming up with excuses, so I am not surprised that the Douglas engine suffered from similar problems.
One point on Stanley's cams mentioned earlier. He was not concerned about the shape of the cams but their timing. Vic (his real name was Vincent) Horsman also rode a Singer in the same period and he inadvertently swapped the inlet and exhaust cams. This provided a significant increase in performance as it provided overlap with inlet and exhaust valves open at the same time. Jim Baxter wrote about this in the VMCC magazine as he owned the Stanley engine.

Regards,
Roger

Hutch · « **Reply #156 on:** 01 Nov 2019 at 04:16 »

Roger and Leon,

Apologies for my tardy reply but things have been a bit busy for the last couple of weeks.

Thanks Roger for the info on Stanley and Horsman's cams - very interesting. I agree with your comments with regards to Stanley's lack of concern with the profile of the cams as with side valve engines there is no fear of the valves hitting the piston's so the lift can be large and the aim on a tuned engine is to get the valve opened and shut as quickly as possible and keep them open as long as possible - so the profile could be quite radical and possibly not as critical compared to an racing OHV one. So Stanley was most likely being coy about the overlap of the two cams rather than the actual profiles (obviously something that is harder to alter with on 2 3/4 HP Duggies as the inlet and exhaust cams are formed on the one part rather than the separate ones on the Singer).

I haven't progressed at all with looking into the Bradshaw / Bailey Douglas cylinder barrel configurations - my drawings of the locations of the barrels with respect to the holes in the crankcases started to look like "Spirograph" pictures (!) - so I have decided to look at a different approach when I get a chance to get back into the shed. Roger, I concur with your comments with respect to your "digitally altered" picture of the engine in post #141. It is looking more likely to me, that the 3 throw crank / 3 rods configuration was not used on this engine - but desaxe cylinders are still a possibility.

Leon, you commented in post #39 that the OHV engine shown on page 44 of Clew's "The Best twin" was more likely 1919, rather than 1913 and that it could be an 8 valve. When I enlarged the picture for post #140, I noticed that the timing cover, which at first appeared to be a later one piece design in fact looks like it was a modified version of the earlier two piece design. Also I thought it was hard to see the valve setup to confirm that it was in fact 4 valve per cylinder rather than 2 valve - it would be nice to find another picture of this engine to be able to confirm this one way or another. So I think this engine is possibly pre WW1 but was not used until after the war in 1919 ?

Some years ago (maybe 6?) I came across the attached picture of a 2 3/4HP Douglas. I apologise for the poor quality but that is all I downloaded at the time from the internet. I don't recall any details of it other than it was supposed to be a Douglas prototype and it was UK based. I went looking recently for the website again but no luck finding it unfortunately. Does anyone know anything about this engine / bike? - is it a genuine Douglas creation or something that an enthusiastic owner has built for themselves? It is obviously 8 valve......

Roger, you asked a question in post #132 re. what Walter Moore was doing between his employment with Douglas and Norton and why would he have joined ABC. I don't know the answer to that - but a while ago I did some research into 3 speed 2 3/4 HP gearbox serial numbers and putting some of this information together with a couple of comments about Walter Moore by Jeff Clew, one that he was reputedly paid a royalty of 1 shilling per 3 speed gearbox (p 42 The Best Twin) and that he was paid much less than some of the munitions workers in WW1 (25 quid a week) at the Douglas factory (pg 55 The Best Twin) I came up with a rough estimate of what he might have been paid in roayalties by Douglas and approximately when.

If you take into consideration the total numbers of 3 speeds used in the 4 HP, 2 3/4 HP, CW and S1/S2 models that were covered by Walter's patent, he would have been paid for over 30,000 gearboxes in total (if the rumour was correct - and I have added the numbers up correctly). For the year of 1920, all new (as opposed to reconditioned WD models) 2 3/4 HP bikes had 3 speed gearboxes. Production of the 4HP was still moderate and there were reasonable number of S1's made as well. So for the 1920 year's production, Walter's earnings from royalties appear to have peaked at about 8000 units and then dropped off rapidly until another peak in 1925 (about 4500 units - mainly for the CW). At one Shilling a box that adds up to a tidy sum of beer money for 1921.....I'm not sure what his salary would have been at Douglas in 1920 but his royalties from the 3 speed gearbox for that year alone would have earned him approx. 400 Pounds and maybe helped his decision to leave Douglas?

Cheers

Ian

cardan · « **Reply #157 on:** 01 Nov 2019 at 05:35 »

Quote from: Hutch on 01 Nov 2019 at 04:16

Leon, you commented in post #39 that the OHV engine shown on page 44 of Clew's "The Best twin" was more likely 1919, rather than 1913 and that it could be an 8 valve. When I enlarged the picture for post #140, I noticed that the timing cover, which at first appeared to be a later one piece design in fact looks like it was a modified version of the earlier two piece design. Also I thought it was hard to see the valve setup to confirm that it was in fact 4 valve per cylinder rather than 2 valve - it would be nice to find another picture of this engine to be able to confirm this one way or another. So I think this engine is possibly pre WW1 but was not used until after the war in 1919 ?

Hi Ian,

Actually I didn't say the engine was "more likely 1919" or that it "could be an 8 valve", rather I said, based on the article I quoted from in the Motor Cycle, 4 Sept 1919, that it WAS 1919 and it WAS 8 valve. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27438#msg27438

Of course the article and illustration may have been "fake news" and the engine was not a "new" 8-valve, but instead a pre-war-2-valve-per-cylinder, but I at the moment I can't think of a why that might be the case.

If the ohv Douglas in your photo is in fact a "prototype", it is unlike any of the others I have described early in this thread. I doubt it's the real deal.

Cheers

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #158 on:** 01 Nov 2019 at 06:32 »

Leon,

Ooops, Sorry, I should have worded my post more carefully. I should have posed the question that the engine in the picture in The Motor Cycle from 4th Sept 1919, described as an 8 Valve OHV Douglas engine was maybe not made in 1919 and was possibly not 8 valve. The description in the text of the existence of a "new" 1919 8 valve Douglas engine would be correct though.

The engine in the picture could be 8 valve, but I cannot see 8 valves (I can see how they could be there tho'.....) and the exhaust and inlets would have to be bifurcated in the head given that there appears to be only one inlet and exhaust pipe per cylinder. Some features of the engine appear to be pre WW1 so Clew's description of this engine being for 1913 still could be correct? Hopefully another picture of the engine shows up that shows more detail of the valves.

I agree with you that the 8 valve in the modern picture doesn't look like any of the other early OHV Douglas's and that points toward it being an interloper (possibly in a similar way to the Billy Davy's NZ OHC Douglas that was constructed in period.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/110073580/graeme-duckett-billy-davy--an-interesting-life
)
I only have sketchy recollections of the web site I found the picture on. Hopefully someone has more information with regards to this 8 valve engine and its origins?.

To date I have not found any information at all that definitely identifies genuine Douglas OHV survivors from the very early days.

Regards,

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #159 on:** 04 Nov 2019 at 23:20 »

Clarification to post #106 added.

Brooklander · « **Reply #160 on:** 05 Nov 2019 at 11:01 »

I have been looking at the pictures in the Hartley collection at Brooklands Museum and came across one showing Pilot Officer Alcock standing in front of an unknown aeroplane with a new Douglas ohv which the caption states is a 1914 TT replica. I think that Alcock's rank indicates that this was taken around the start of the war in 1914. This certainly shows that he was very much involved with Douglas at that time and is a possible link to SLB. Certainly Bob Dicker, who was part of the support team that went out to the States for the trans-Atlantic crossing, was part of the ABC team in 1913 and possibly even late 1912 when they were producing the components for SLB's race engine. I will ask for permission to post the picture.
I have also found this delightful article written by SLB just before his departure in December 1912 that shows that he was very much more than just a rider. I see no reason to doubt that he did commission the 500cc horizontally opposed twin design that was subsequently taken over by ABC. Granville Bradshaw did not have any experience of air cooled aero engines or race engines as he implied; the Star engine was water cooled and was commissioned by Star before he joined the company in late 1909/early 1910.

More on both of these questions as my research on Bradshaw concludes.

Roger

TonyC · « **Reply #161 on:** 05 Nov 2019 at 12:43 »

Have been looking through my Fathers archive and have found these two interesting pictures.

They are both taken at Brooklands and are very good quality images. A date of 1951 is on the back of one of them so perhaps they were taken from glass slides.

Regards

Tony

Brooklander · « **Reply #162 on:** 05 Nov 2019 at 13:50 »

Tony,

I have seen both pictures before but not associated the two which have obviously been taken on the same day. Both at in the Peter Hartley collection at Brooklands but only the one of Ball is captioned. This gives the same information but adds that the picture was taken in 1914 but the 4 has been subsequently replaced by a hand written 3.
The tree line in the Ball picture shows all of the trees in leaf which would make it more likely to be October 1913 rather than February/March 1914. The Brewster picture gives a wider view of the trees showing some bare ones confirming the later date. Both Ball and Brewster did ride a Douglas in the second meeting at Brooklands on 13 April 1914 which was a BARC rather than Bemsee event. The lack of other competitors in the pictures indicates that this was taken well before the event.

Brewster was a member of the Association of Pioneer Motor Cyclists which was formed after the Second World War which explains the 1951 date. Phillip "Percy" Brewster was a remarkable rider whose first race at the track was in 1911 and his last, the grueling 200 Miles Sidecar Race, in 1930. He also presented a remarkable paper on tuning motorcycles for a wide range of events to the Institution of Automobile Engineers in 1926 and produced racing pistons under the name of Martlet. I bought his scrapbook on Ebay this year and it

is now in the museum. I thought of producing some copies of the 1926 paper but ran out of time.

Roger

cardan · « **Reply #163 on:** 05 Nov 2019 at 20:25 »

Hi Tony,

Lovely photos! Thanks for posting them. "APMC" is (I recall) the Association of Pioneer Motor Cyclists, so maybe the photos were printed in the 1950s for an APMC event. Was your dad a member?

The bikes are both of the "1914 TT pattern", rather than the type used by Alfie Alexander on the beach at Weston-Super-Mare and at Brooklands in October 1913. Hartley's caption for the Ball photo (which I reproduced back near the start of this thread https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27406#msg27406 ) is that it was taken during track tests at Brooklands in (late) February 1914. In the text, Hartley says that Les Bailey, on crutches, acted as timekeeper.

No doubt the bikes had many other outings at Brooklands in the build-up to the TT. Hartley lists the race appearances, but there would have been testing too.

Cheers

Leon

cardan · « **Reply #164 on:** 05 Nov 2019 at 22:05 »

Still at Brooklands, but after the TT and just two weeks before the outbreak of war. This is the start of the 350cc Ten Mile Scratch Race.

SLB, second from right, is on his light-weight, long-wheel-base track bike. The engine is one of the 1914-TT-type, although it looks a bit unusual because of the camera angle. The front exhaust exits forward and down to the left, towards the camera in this shot. There is more about this bike and another photo higher in the thread. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27337#msg27337

SLB was a man of steel - suspension was for sissies. No doubt the beaded-edge tyres were inflated rock hard and it must have hurt at 60+ mph. Bailey lead for the first lap, but broke a valve rocker on the second lap and dropped out.

The photo comes from Old Bike magazine, Issue 32, Winter 1999/2000.

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #165 on:** 15 Nov 2019 at 03:29 »

Roger,

The picture you referred to in post #160 of Alcock with his 1914 OHV Douglas from the Hartley Collection, looks like it appeared in The Motor Cycle on June 26th 1919 after his success flying across the Atlantic and again on 1st January 1920 after his fatal crash in France.

From references to Alcocks training after joining the RNAS documented in Flight magazine in late 1914 and 1915 the aeroplane he is front of would most likely be a French Caudron (possibly model D or F ?) which was used as a training and reconnaissance plane. He was listed as Temporary Warrant Officer 2nd grade on 19th November 1914 and was promoted to Flight Sub-Lieutenant, for temporary service, 29th December 1915 (announced Flight 6th January 1916).

Alcock’s OHV Douglas does appear to have a lot of similarities with the ones shown Tony’s great photos in Post #161, albeit it being in road going trim.

An ex-Alcock 2 3/4HP OHV Douglas was for sale in The Motorcycle on 16th October 1919, maybe Baxter was trying to cash in on Alcock’s notoriety at the time?

Looking forward to seeing the picture from the Hartley Collection if you can get permission !

Cheers

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #166 on:** 15 Nov 2019 at 05:11 »

Tony,

Your excellent picture of Ball in post #161 appears to be the same bike shown here at Brooklands but on another occasion;

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/photo/bike-at-brooklands-high-res-stock-photography/HN6129-001

cheers

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #167 on:** 18 Nov 2019 at 03:30 »

I was looking at the stilltime collection for early pictures of Brooklands and came across this picture ......;

http://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/detail/3259-tpt-transport-bike-douglas-racing-prix-motor-sport-raceway-race-brooklands-veteran-soldier-war-battle-survivor-military-army-reflextion.html

I noticed the machine had some things in common with some of SLB's early Douglas bikes shown in previous posts on this thread. Did O8502 (or at least parts of it) evolve during 1912 to become the Bradshaw / Bailey OHV record breaker?

cheers

Ian

Brooklander · « **Reply #168 on:** 22 Nov 2019 at 07:41 »

Ian,

I don't seem to get email notification of the posts now so apologies for the delay in responding.
It is highly likely that SLB used the same machine and that it evolved over time. Jack Emerson's Norton which took records in 1912 was taken over by O'Donovan and was used at least until 1924 for testing Brooklands Specials and Road Specials engines at the track. LPD1 was built in 1926 and was still racing when Pat Driscoll gave up motorcycle racing in 1932.
I now have access to the tapes that Bob Dicker recorded at the museum. He worked for ABC in 1913 together with Dougal Marchant and Jack Emerson and possibly earlier so could have been involved with the SLB development. In 1919 he was part of the US based crew for the Alcock and Brown trans Atlantic flight.
However, we need to be careful about assuming that the record breaking machines were the same as those used on the road. Bert le Vack certainly used very special machines for record breaking and there is snippet in Motor Cycle that suggested that SLB's record breaking machine would weigh just 95lbs! The 1913/4 ABC racers were certainly not standard road going machines even if they raced in the TT.
Regards,
Roger

Hutch · « **Reply #169 on:** 11 Dec 2019 at 04:42 »

Roger,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you but I have been busy with the usual end of year "rush" unfortunately. Hopefully your email notification will let you know about the new post this time?!

After looking more closely at the existing pictures of his Douglas machines I am erring towards him having possibly two bikes for the 1912 season and mixed and matched parts as required for the task in hand. As you mentioned, Bailey did specifically mention the development of a light weight bike in the press and presumably this was the one that went on to be the Bradshaw / Bailey OHV record machine in 1912. He most likely had a different machine for his road events, but parts from that appear to have possibly made their way onto the OHV record bike. I guess also the number plate O8502 could have been used on different machines as required.....

I have looked into connections between Bob Dicker and Les Bailey and have not come across any documented evidence so far, but I'm sure they would have known each other. I will keep looking......

I came across this picture on the ABC Road Motors website, (original from Brooklands Museum)

https://www.abcroadmotors.co.uk/history.html?start=1

of Bailey in the 150 Mile Junior TT race at Brooklands 14th September 1912, which I think was a week after his French Grand Prix Class win at Le Mans. It shows a Harold J Cox "C.A.P" Carburettor (AKA BSA Double Barrel carburettor) that Bailey appears to have used on the OHV record breaker (Doug's reply #112) and appears to be similar, if not the same, as used on the 1914 OHV engine as mentioned by Leon in post #34.

See;

http://vinvetmotorcycle.simplesite.com/434774156

for some info on the C.A.P. Carburettor (scroll down the page a bit). BSA liked to acknowledge that the carby had been used for winning the Brooklands Junior TT, but did not mention by whom or what brand of machine they were riding!

Further to the Stanley - Bailey Match Race - Les was reported in the press when he was back in Australia in early 1913 (Sydney Sunday Times 9th Feb 1913) that he was still intending to undertake the race. I didn't include the entire article as it was quite lengthy but it can be found here;

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/126460708?searchTerm=%22s.l.bailey%22&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-year=1913|||l-category=Article|||l-illustrated=true

Cheers

Ian

cardan · « **Reply #170 on:** 11 Dec 2019 at 08:22 »

SLB's Sept 1912 bike is more heavily finned than the standard 1912 Douglases, but seems to have a standard timng chest - a precursor to the rather-more-special machines that were developed for the 1913 TT. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5097

Leon

Brooklander · « **Reply #171 on:** 11 Dec 2019 at 21:32 »

Ian,

Thank you, I did receive the notification of your post.
I too have been sending far too much time on other things, this time it is the origins of ABC when Walter Adams joined with Ronald Charteris in 1909 to form what was to become the All British Engine Co. Tracing the Adams history was fascinating as he claimed to have produced an overhead valve oil engine in 1893 and went into production with a horizontal single cylinder water cooled version in 1900.

I now have the tapes of Bob Dicker's interview and must go through them to see if there is any connection with SLB. I suspect that there was a strong link with Douglas as I now think that the ABC engined machine was commissioned by ABC in an attempt to get their engine adopted by Douglas. ABC are likely to have tried to sell them the design as they were not really interested in building the engine or the complete machine themselves. Their subsequent record showed that this was a wise strategy.

I found this article after reading the excellent one that you posted.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/240055314?searchTerm=%22s.l.bailey%22&searchLimits=l-decade=191
It is notable because SLB claimed to have introduced high speed engines to the public and obtaining sustainable power at 5000 rpm due to the balance of the horizontally opposed twin configuration. Up to that point Bradshaw only had experience of four cylinder and V8 engines so I think this is evidence that he did indeed design the ABC engine. It is significant that Bradshaw's first aero engine was a copy of the one that Adams designed for Star.

Regards,
Roger

cardan · « **Reply #172 on:** 11 Dec 2019 at 22:19 »

Quote from: Brooklander on 11 Dec 2019 at 21:32

...as I now think that the ABC engined machine was commissioned by ABC in an attempt to get their engine adopted by Douglas. ABC are likely to have tried to sell them the design as they were not really interested in building the engine or the complete machine themselves.

Do tell more Roger! Presumably you have some evidence to support your thoughts?

Quote from: Brooklander on 11 Dec 2019 at 21:32

...It is notable because SLB claimed to have introduced high speed engines to the public and obtaining sustainable power at 5000 rpm due to the balance of the horizontally opposed twin configuration. Up to that point Bradshaw only had experience of four cylinder and V8 engines so I think this is evidence that he did indeed design the ABC engine...

Sorry, in my wildest imaginings I can't interpret this article as "evidence" that SLB designed the ABC engine.

Personally I don't subscribe to the "Granville Bradshaw was a goose" brigade, championed by Brian Woolley on the Classic Motorcycle magazine many years ago.

Cheers

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #173 on:** 12 Dec 2019 at 04:29 »

Leon,

Quote from: cardan on 11 Dec 2019 at 08:22

SLB's Sept 1912 bike is more heavily finned than the standard 1912 Douglases, but seems to have a standard timng chest - a precursor to the rather-more-special machines that were developed for the 1913 TT. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5097

Your mention of 1913 TT Machines reminded me of something that I came across some time ago, before this thread started, of what could have been a PR stunt by Bailey when he returned to Australia in the mid 20's using a bike with the nickname "Never Stop" - a 1913 2 3/4 HP Douglas owned by William's Bros.( I say it might have been a PR stunt because before 1925 I cannot find mention of the name "Never Stop" associated with a Douglas, tho' the newspaper articles state that the bike had been used in competition for many years previously).

It was used in handicap races using a local rider and looked like it could put on a good turn of speed despite its relatively old age. Was this machine a 1913 TT model or possibly one of the 1912 bikes that Bailey took with him to Australia and used early in 1913? Pity the picture of it isn't a little clearer. I guess the old bike was a bit of a "sleeper" and hence was successful for a while against the handicapper until they wised up!

Standard 1912 2 3/4 Barrels did have quite a number of fins compared to the 1913 - 1919 "veteran" ones, but the inlet port was much improved in the 1912 TT version over the standard one - a feature that appears to have been carried over to the 1913 production version. As they say "racing improves the breed". (I didn't have a picture of a 1913 to hand and my picture shows a 1914 barrel but it is much the same as the 1913 one)

Cheers

Ian

Brooklander · « **Reply #174 on:** 12 Dec 2019 at 10:39 »

Leon,

Quote from: cardan on 11 Dec 2019 at 22:19

Do tell more Roger! Presumably you have some evidence to support your thoughts?

As this is outside the topic I refer you to the excellent set of articles on the history of ABC by David Hales
https://abcroadmotors.co.uk/history.html
Brooklands Museum now has David's collection which includes catalogues and the board minutes of ABC Road Motors (1914) to is dissolution in 1920. The minutes show how few complete motorcycles were sold and that they were only offered from 1914 when the war intervened. The 1913 catalogue was for engines only and not complete motorcycles.
The 1912 aero engine catalogue offered water cooled large capacity engines with 4, 6, 8 and 12 cylinders and I have only found evidence of only one 4 cylinder engine that flew although a couple of the V8s failed on the static military tests that year.

Quote from: cardan on 11 Dec 2019 at 22:19

Sorry, in my wildest imaginings I can't interpret this article as "evidence" that SLB designed the ABC engine.

Personally I don't subscribe to the "Granville Bradshaw was a goose" brigade, championed by Brian Woolley on the Classic Motorcycle magazine many years ago.

Bradshaw's experience was with large water cooled engines which ran at a maximum 1800rpm so how likely is that he would have come up with a high speed air cooled HO twin? SLB claimed to have been working of a 500cc air cooled HO twin before he left for Australia in December 1911. What a coincidence that Bradshaw announced early in 1912, after SLB was safely on the other side of the world, that ABC were putting into production such an engine.
Bradshaw was a draftsman with minimal training and no engineering experience apart from blowing up his brother's motorcycle and bolting a propeller to a V-twin JAP engine that, when started, ripped the mounting from the bench. No doubt he claimed that as his first flying experience

Please tell us more about why you believe he was not a "goose" laden with all of the goodies plagiarised from others and of any successful designs that didn't bankrupt the company that manufactured them.

Regards,
Roger

Brooklander · « **Reply #175 on:** 15 Dec 2019 at 16:48 »

I have found out more about the Humber aeroplane which was launched with a catalogue in 1910, Matchless also built a plane that year. Humber produced their own engine for the plane but abandoned the project in 1911. It was no surprise that the 1910 Humber in that year's T.T. used technology employed in their aero engine. Notable features were a cylinder machined from steel and overhead valve assemblies inserted into the one piece cylinder/head. This is the technology used in SLB's 1912 Douglas engine. SLB worked for Humber in 1912 so is likely to have learnt about this approach while he was there making it even more likely that he approached an aero engine manufacturer (ABC) who had workshops at Brooklands and that it really was his design for an HO 500cc twin that he was working on that delayed his return in December.

cardan · « **Reply #176 on:** 16 Dec 2019 at 20:03 »

The Humber design is cute and quirky - I particularly like the concentric pushrods. I doubt SLB would have learned anything from it other than it was best avoided. OHV JAP engines were common at the time - using "mini heads" to carry the valves - as was the four-valve Indian which used a separate head and cylinder. The well-sorted 350 OHV Precision came out in the second half of 1912, using valves in separate cages which included the valve seat dropped into a one-piece cylinder/head casting - a design carried over from many long-established inlet-over-exhaust engines.

In summary, SLB (or Granville Bradshaw for that matter) didn't need the Humber to know what a good OHV engine looked like.

Personally, I have no time for the "Bradshaw-goose, Bailey-genius" argument, particularly when it is unsupported by evidence.

Leon

Brooklander · « **Reply #177 on:** 17 Dec 2019 at 09:33 »

Leon,

The Humber TT engine was the first motorcycle engine that I can find that used the newly emerging aero engine practice and in particular the machined steel cylinder/head assembly. This method produced lighter components but at a significant cost which would not have been justified in a production motorcycle. A single push/pull rode was also aero engine practice as in the Gnome rotary. Walter Adams went into production with an overhead valve water cooled single in 1900 that used inlet and exhaust valve assemblies bolted to the cylinder/head. He also infered that he produced an engine with that layout in 1893 was was remarkably early. Adams went on to design and produce the Star four cylinder aero engine in 1910 that evolved into the first ABC range of aero engines the following year.
Bradshaw was like the curate's egg - good in parts. His genius was to put together the best parts of the designs of others but he was a draftsman and neither a design nor a production engineer . My favourite is the post Great-War Sopwith ABC twin and as a result the delightful machine was far too expensive to produce (e.g. cylinders), extremely unreliable (e.g.rocker assemblies) and impractical. Who else would deliberately omit a kickstart from a design on the grounds that it was easy to bump start and then add a sidecar?

Regards,
Roger

pvn06 · « **Reply #178 on:** 11 Jan 2020 at 23:20 »

Great to see this thread, I guess I must have missed it when I last looked.
I became interested in this first OHV engine when I started building my own 2 3/4hp model into a rough TT spec 3 years ago. I too had been looking for more photos of the OHV Works bike - and guessed that the final configuration was the 1914 TT bikes, shown in the Kieg collection - which you show in this thread. I too had found the picture of Brown in an old motorcycle book - although it was not identified as the OHV TT bike . . . but was amazed to see it being used by Brown, seemingly on the road - photo attached.
Although work on my own sidevalve 2 3/4hp (in TT rep spec) is still progressing slowly, eventually I would like to consider building a replica of the OHV 1914 TT bike. I have almost enough 2 3/4hp bottom half engine parts to build another motor. I have been keeping an eye out for any early OHV valve stuff . . . but not surprisingly have not found anything resembling the genuine engine parts yet - unless anyone knows different - I am guessing none survived.
However, I have managed to get hold of what I think are very early (20-21'ish?) 350 OHV barrels . .. identifiable as being early as they still use the vertical crankcase mounting holes. As you can see from the photo, they also have a 3rd hole at 90 degrees - which I assume the original 1913/14 engines would not have had - but this 3rd lug looks like it can be easily removed as superfluous when fitting to 2 3/4hp crankcases.
I also have a gaff 1917 frame - i.e. some tubes have very bad corrosion. As it is, it is too rough to use - but I think as part of retubing I can make the front downtubes duplex (as the 14 OHV bikes were, as said earlier in this thread - similar to the 4HP frame) and also the saddle tube will need surgery to bring it into a more vertical position where it meets the gearbox mount.
Needless to say - if anyone does have any early 350 OHV parts I would be very interested! That said, I see this as a long term retirement project, and still need quite a few parts - I am looking for a better set of early fork blades than the set I currently have, and another Douglas hub and rear belt rim. I do have a 1912 petrol tank - and am thinking I will mount a second hand pump in it, rather than the large external hand pump used on the 1912 TT bikes.

Finally a photo of my current build attached, as it is now in early 2020 . . . will do another article on this shortly, but it is progressing!, need to get this one done first!
thx for this thread - it has a number of photos and information I had not seen before.
Best wishes
Paul Norman
www.RacingVincent.co.uk

cardan · « **Reply #179 on:** 12 Jan 2020 at 00:34 »

Hi Paul,

Brown's machine is quite a bike - handsome and fast. I'd gladly have it in the shed.

I have commented on your barrels elsewhere: https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7357.msg29077#msg29077

Cheers

Leon

pvn06 · « **Reply #180 on:** 12 Jan 2020 at 10:27 »

Hi Leon, good to talk . . . thanks for this, and my apologies - I don't know why I missed your reply to my earlier thread, but thanks and yes - useful info. Doug also replied to me on this yesterday for those barrels . . . that is good to know. I think the quest for OHV heads that look something like correct for the 14 OHV bikes will be the most difficult challenge. I know the picture of the early engine shows a one piece head/barrel, but am expecting that might have to make a pattern to have them cast eventually . . . long way from that time yet though.
chrs
Paul

Hutch · « **Reply #181 on:** 13 Jan 2020 at 00:15 »

Paul and Leon,

Is the picture of person sitting on AE 4145 in reply #178 Sir John Alcock rather than William Brown? see reply no. 165 in this thread with the picture from The Motor Cycle June 26 1919.

regards,

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #182 on:** 13 Jan 2020 at 02:45 »

Here is a picture of SLB doing some record breaking in Melbourne in 1913 as shown in The Sunday Times (Sydney) 13th July 1913. Not great quality unfortunately.

-Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #183 on:** 13 Jan 2020 at 02:52 »

Spotted on ebay;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1912-S-L-Bailey-On-His-3-h-p-Twin-Humber-Aston-Track-/333165985622

Picture of Bailey on his Humber in 1912.

-Ian

pvn06 · « **Reply #184 on:** 13 Jan 2020 at 19:49 »

Hi Hutch, you are absolutely right of course - it was Alccock not Brown. I was supping a large glass of red wine at the time - that's my excuse m'lord. The book was a late 70's publication - Kaleidoscope of motor cycling or similar and has some great photos from pre-war era.

And here's a question for those interested in pre-WW1 Douggie race bikes. . . I have a repro spare parts list that lists part 204D as the carb fitted to the TT bikes in 12-13-14, but does not say what kind of carb it is?? I know in the pictures of Bashall in 1912 his bike has a single choke carb with a larger ring around the bellmouth, but on at least picture of Bailey in the same year it shows an unusual twin choke carb. I would be interested to know what carb to keep an eye out for!
I already have what I think is an Amac HYD or 25E (original 2 3/4 carbs for 25E showing as pre 1919) for my 1919/20 bike (with what could be WW1 green paint still on it) and another similar for second bike, but if anyone knows what the TT bikes used, would be interested.

chrs
Paul

cardan · « **Reply #185 on:** 14 Jan 2020 at 04:22 »

Hi Paul,

Bailey (at least sometimes) used a BSA carburettor on his racing Douglases at Brooklands - for example he won the Brooklands Junior TT on 14 Sept 1912 and BSA claimed credit for his carburettor in their advertising in November. The carb used two rotating barrels with a thumb-wheel-adjustable main jet between, and can be seen in various photos of Bailey's bikes above. The design was earlier marketed as CAP, but the only ones I have seen are branded BSA. [Edit: Detail of the 1914 TT Douglases published in Motor Cycling show this carburettor: see higher up https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27416#msg27416 ]

AMAC was the standard carb of choice at Douglas. Prior to 1915 the design featured a large hexagon nut that screwed onto the bottom of the mixing chamber. The carbs with the bell-mouth and the large hexagon are AMAC. I suppose there was a racing version pre war, but the earliest "commercial" racing AMACs I know of were the 15TT23s on the RA.

Alfie Alexander's 1914 [Edit again - not 1913 as I first typed] racer (AE-P2) uses the 1913-on pattern Senspray. This has a rotating throttle valve (with a small rotating air "shutter") with a main jet on axis at the centre of the throttle valve. On the 1913-1918 versions, there is a fixed venturi on axis of the main air inlet which focusses a jet of air at the tip of the main jet. You can see the venturi in the side-on photo of Alfie's bike above. (The BSA/CAP design doesn't have this venturi.)

Cheers

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #186 on:** 15 Jan 2020 at 05:59 »

No worries on the mix up Paul, easily done with the close association of Alcock and Brown. I don’t even need alcohol these days to help in inducing a disconnect between what I’m looking at, my brain and fingers doing the typing!! 😊.

The TT models as released by Douglas to the public and the actual works TT bikes would have differed in many details. I think items, such as carburettors, would have been individually experimented with by competitors such as Bashall, Bailey, Kickham et al. in the search for better performance.

I had a look in the 1916 version of The Handbook of the Douglas Motor Cycle (available as a reprint from the LDMCC). Here they list part 204D under the heading of “Douglas Carburettor”, implying that the standard carburettor they mounted on their TT model was of their own manufacture. It is probable tho’, that customers could order other period carburettors, such as AMAC’s, instead of the Douglas carburettor for the TT model.

The 1916 handbook also shows some of the Douglas carburettor parts. I don’t know what the difference between the TT versions and the standard version of their own instrument would have been– could be different choke size or jets?

A special Douglas version of the AMAC carburettor was described in The Motor Cycle in 18th December1913. The carburettor shown differs in some details to the 25E version but the function of the heat jacket is the same. I have not been able to locate very much information on these early AMAC carburettors. There is some information on the N.Z. Barnstormer’s website in the Hints and Tips for AMAC carburettors 1914-1920 and some in the 1916 The Handbook of the Douglas Motorcycle. Maybe a forum member has more information on these early carburettors?

http://www.barnstormers.co.nz/1604/amac-1914-1920-carburettor-hints-and-tips/

Thanks for the information about where you found the good quality picture of Alcock – I will see if I can track down a copy of the book.

Cheers
Ian

cardan · « **Reply #187 on:** 16 Jan 2020 at 01:43 »

Quote from: Hutch on 15 Jan 2020 at 05:59

The TT models as released by Douglas to the public and the actual works TT bikes would have differed in many details.

Hi Ian,

I'm not quite sure on this, in part because I haven't seen Douglas advertising a "TT" model pre WW1? Most other makers did, and it usually designated their sporty model but with no pedals, as these were banned from the TT. Of course Douglas did away with pedals on all its models quite early. Special bikes were no-doubt supplied to "special customers".

Anyway, I suppose the closest thing to a "TT" model was the 2-speed model with footrests (rather than foot boards) and guards without valances. In 1913 this was the Model P, which became the Model V in 1914, and it's interesting to note that the Model V is shown with an AMAC carb, rather than the Douglas carb that was used on the more sedate 1914 models. The Douglas item was a rather dated affair, with a torturous path for the air and the mixture to get to the engine, and I doubt any speedman of the day would fit one to his machine.

So back to you Paul: does the parts list explicitly say the 204D was the carb fitted to the TT bikes in 12-13-14? The 1913 TT bikes (side valves) were very sporty, and used "works" cylinders, but the photos I've seen would suggest AMAC carburettor.

Cheers

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #188 on:** 16 Jan 2020 at 04:58 »

Leon,

I understand your scepticism. I based my statement on observation of the some of the pictures of works TT bikes from this period, that many of the details between individual riders machines were different for a given year, and this, together with the general observation that Douglas appears to have released models to the public with improvements from the previous year, plus the works TT bikes changing from year to year, then it was unlikely that a public version of the TT bike would be exact in detail to the previous years works TT model.

I agree that the Douglas carburettor was unlikely to have the performance of the AMAC and I think if the customer had the choice they would pick the AMAC. Maybe the Douglas carburettor was not so bad compared to others at the end of 1911 (see attached picture), but about to be quickly surpassed in performance by the AMAC?

(I note that the 1913 TT model shown here;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2624.0

does not appear to have some of the features of the special works TT models of that year, or the previous year, though it's provenance indicates it is a genuine TT Douglas. BTW It also has an AMAC carburettor !)

The only advertising picture for the 1912 - 1914 period "public" model TT Douglas I have found so far, is this one from The Motor Cycle 16th November 1911, showing a Douglas Carburettor fitted.

So Douglas offered their "TT" version carburettor 204 D as an option for their public TT model for the period 1912-1914, but most customers would have chosen the better option - AMAC ??

cheers

Ian

eddie · « **Reply #189 on:** 16 Jan 2020 at 07:12 »

Ian,
Alan Phillipps fitted the Amac carb on LB1120 when he first rebuilt the bike in 1960. When he purchased the bike from the original owner, it had been fitted with a Cox Atmos carb (which he couldn't get to operate satisfactorily - hence the Amac). Later on - when the bike had passed on to Alan's son, Trevor, we tried to get it running on the Cox Atmos without much success - power delivery was erratic and unpredictable, causing belt stretch and breakage, but there appeared to be a cocsiderable power benefit from the Cox Atmos. Bearing in mind the bike was then about 80 years old, we decided it was better to give it a less stressful life with the Amac Carb. It is still easily capable of 60 mph. I have had the engine stripped down once, and the only descernable internal differences are the camshaft - it is just stamped up 'C', and the pistons are lower compression (when Alan got the bike it had odd pistons with different compression heights, so the lower ratio was chosen to give the old girl an easier life! ).

Regards,
Eddie.

cardan · « **Reply #190 on:** 16 Jan 2020 at 08:46 »

Ah Eddie - we are rare members of the brotherhood of the Cox Atmos! I had one fitted to my 1923 Invincible JAP (Australian-made 1000cc v-twin), and it ran "ok" without being fantastic over many thousands of miles. One afternoon I spent hours "tuning" the Cox Atmos, and eventually got a steady idle, fabulous response when the throttle was cracked open, and gobs of revs. On the stand. I headed off on a rally the next day and it wouldn't run down the road!! A friend, cleverer than me, had his JAP twin running beautifully on the same model carb. I've not seen a CA small enough for a 2 3/4 Douglas.

Ian the bike in your illustration is in the 1912 catalogue as the Model J, the predecessor to the 1913 Model P and the 1914 Model V. These models were listed by Douglas as "light touring", but in line with other manufacturers (e.g. Rudge, Triumph, Rover, Norton, ...) it could be (and clearly was) referred to (by others?) as a "TT Model", which was at the time an abbreviation for "our standard roadster but with no pedals, light mudguards and dropped handlebars". Remove the guards and tool box and they were often catalogued as the "Brooklands Racer".

This is where you should be careful. A "TT Model" pre-WW1 most likely used a bog-standard engine. To get go-faster goodies - a special cam, high compression piston etc. - your best bet would be to be a "special" customer of one of the big agents, of have friends at the factory. Is LB1120 really a "genuine TT Douglas"? Not in the strictest sense, because it doesn't have the very special parts that were seen on the "Works" bikes ridden by Bashall, Bailey et al.

But given that the Douglas catalogue pre WW1 didn't feature a "TT Model", LB1120 is the type of machine Douglas would supply to preferred customers that wanted to go racing. Pretty much a Model P with a special cam, perhaps special pistons, and certainly not a Douglas carburettor. The period photo in Eddie's thread shows an absolutely fabulous bell mouth on its non-Douglas carburettor.

To get a good idea of how far advanced the "Works" machines were in 1912, compare Bashall's 1912 TT bike to the bolt-on-manifold Model J.

Cheers

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #191 on:** 17 Jan 2020 at 00:01 »

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for the information and experiences with regards to the carburettor on LB1120.

Looking back through old threads just now I came across this one from 2007;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2012.msg7555#msg7555, in particular reply #13

Did you ever find out what the cam was in Alastair Brown's ex Alfie Alexander 1912 machine S-9084 ? :-)

Is this bike possibly the only survivor with what appears to be 1912 "works" features ?

cheers

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #192 on:** 17 Jan 2020 at 01:14 »

Leon,

Yes you are correct, Douglas did not list a specific TT model for the period 1912 to 1914. I will refrain from referring to such a model from now on and describe them by the term "Light Touring" model and /or by their Douglas designated model letter.

The Douglas "T.T." Carburettor is listed in the 1914 Working Instructions and Price List of Spare Parts for the 2 3/4HP Douglas as Motor Cycle as part 878a for the 1912-13-14 T.T. models. The early part numbering system appears to be quite different to the 1916 and onwards parts numbering system for the 2 3/4HP. I do not know why Douglas called it a T.T. version and why they offered it for that period of time when history tells us that the AMAC was a much better instrument. (EDIT: Douglas also list controls and cables part number 872 for the AMAC carburettor and note that if you require these for a T.T. model then please state that when ordering. Thus Douglas did recognise they had a "T.T." model even if they didn't appear to advertise one as such in their catalogues?)

The earliest reference I can find for a "T.T." engine being avail. for fitment to a Douglas Motorcycle is for the Model V 2 and 3 speed versions shown in the 1915 Preliminary List of Douglas Models. It does not describe how the "T.T." engine differed from the standard one. The list does not identify these machines as being a T.T. model only that they could be optioned with a T.T. engine and either Douglas or AMAC carburettor.

Just to remind myself what some of the differences are between the standard Douglas 2 3/4HP barrels and the works one's I have updated my picture from my reply #173 to include (unfortunately rough picture segment) of Bashall's 1912 TT winning engine, the ex Alfie Alexander S-9084 and Bashall's 1913 TT engine. As I mentioned before, I would expect the standard bikes features to lag the works machines by at least a year, so I would expect a Model J (developed in 1911), whether described in the press of the day as a TT model or not, to be of a lower specification to a 1912 works T.T. machine.

I feel we have drifted off the topic of this thread a little.

-Ian

cardan · « **Reply #193 on:** 09 Mar 2020 at 07:48 »

I had always assumed the central-boss piston and forked con-rod was a Bailey design new for the RA. But no - the design was apparently used by Douglas in ohv racers as early as 1920-21. SLB and William Douglas shared credit for the design.

A booklet prepared for RA riders in the 1923 TT offered the following info on the RA piston:

"It [the piston used in the RA] is patented in most countries, and has been well tested on the bench, on the track and [in] various record attempts. It was used with success in the twenty-four hours, sidecar record, Junior Race in the Isle of Man, Junior Race on Brooklands, and many other events, as well as the Brooklands T.T. Race, 1921."

The design dates back to at least June 1920, when William Douglas and S.L. Bailey filed a description for US patent US1437585. [Edit: woops, wrong patent! See next post.]

Again this highlights that the RA was not so much a "miraculous birth" but a coming-together of a lot of clever ideas that had been swirling around the works for a while. SLB was the brains behind quite a lot of them...

Leon

cardan · « **Reply #194 on:** 10 Mar 2020 at 02:45 »

Woops - thanks to Doug for pointing out I've quoted the wrong patent above, and that I want GB187281 which describes the single boss piston.

So please amend the above post to read "the design dates back to at least June 1921, when S.L. Bailey filed a description for GB patent GB187281".

The reference to the piston design being used in the 1921 Brooklands TT (May 1921, I think) suggests the piston was around for a little time before the patent was filed.

Cheers

Leon

roger h · « **Reply #195 on:** 12 Mar 2020 at 22:09 »

Its been a while since I've looked at this thread, and its still fascinating. well done.
I have a Cox Atmos carb on my 1226 Humber 12/25 car, I've had them on four Humbers now, and they're very good in this application. At the start of the season, when its still wet and cold, I find I have to open up the adjustable main jet to get it to run properly, but as the season progresses I have to gradually close it down. Friends with Humbers have the same experience. I haven't seen one on a bike.
Best wishes,
Roger
(now trying to rebuild an SW5)

Hutch · « **Reply #196 on:** 25 Apr 2020 at 01:35 »

Leon,

Quote from: cardan on 09 Mar 2020 at 07:48

Again this highlights that the RA was not so much a "miraculous birth" but a coming-together of a lot of clever ideas that had been swirling around the works for a while. SLB was the brains behind quite a lot of them...

Yes I concur with your comments but unfortunately not all of Douglas's "clever" ideas seem to have been a success - one that comes to mind is the OB (and OC) kick start mechanism, SLB's Patent No. 244559 (mentioned here ; https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2827.msg10379#msg10379)

Looks like the general idea of the kick start quadrant attached to the crankcase might have originated back in 1913 with Williamson? As the OB was designed as a sporting touring machine it obviously needed a kick start, particularly with a sidecar attached. To me it does not seem a good idea to have the kick start quadrant in a case with the timing gears! - what could possibly go wrong! :-), but I guess Bailey had limited options available to him at the time.

The OB kick start developed a poor reputation, possibly not helped by lack of proper development before it went into production - maybe another casualty of Douglas concentrating on developing the EW?

The boss on the crankcase appears to be an additional weak point in the design, assuming the damage to the two on the left in the picture were not caused by other means (i.e. delicate application of a hammer during speedway preparation)? Has anyone else seen this type of damage on OB cases?

The OB case on the right looks like it had a core alignment problem in production and is a possible disaster waiting to happen (it is not an early engine number - about half way through the OB production). The kick start mechanism was improved with the introduction of the OC (but I don't think all of it's shortcomings were addressed) and then it was quietly forgotten......

cheers

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #197 on:** 25 Apr 2020 at 01:43 »

Williamson kick start shown in this video;

cheers

Ian

Hutch · « **Reply #198 on:** 02 May 2020 at 02:23 »

Information on what SLB was up to in 1924 appears to be quite thin. I found this article in The Western Daily Press on July 25th 1924 where the Bristol area was visited by an International delegation of advertising people. It appears that they had a good time inspecting the Douglas works, including the RA model.

I like the comment about Douglas making their own nuts and bolts - yes we know about them !

-Ian

Brooklander · « **Reply #199 on:** 18 Dec 2020 at 16:58 »

Quote from: cardan on 29 Oct 2018 at 10:23

Here's the insides of the first ABC OHV motor, and described in the press in late 1912. Note the three con rods.

It seems likely that the 1912 DOuglas OHV motor also had a three-throw crank.

Leon

Leon,

I'm back in the land of the living and have now completed Bradshaw's history up to the end of 1913. This makes it virtually certain that the ABC engine in the picture was the engine that Les wanted to produce and approached ABC to put his design into practice. ABC's aero engines were not a roaring success so they needed other work to provide an income in 1912 and Bradshaw's draftsman's background was an ideal start of the collaboration. Although he was an expert on aeroplane design and stresses he wasn't an engineer and in 1913 ABC recruited Jack Emerson, Dougal Marchant and Bob Dicker for their motorcycle engineering expertise and gave up on aero engines.
Your picture is date as late 1912, do you where it was published and exactly when?
This could be significant as I think it was more likely to have been published after Les was on his way back home and didn't find out about it until later. The engine design was changed in mid 1913 with a two throw crank and over square dimensions which I think may have been to avoid any claims by Les that they infringed his design.