Author Topic: S.L. Bailey  (Read 12019 times)

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Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #100 on: 11 Dec 2018 at 21:14 »
Les's waistcoat buttons hint at why others were doing the riding in 1923.

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #101 on: 12 Dec 2018 at 02:11 »
SLB's "middle aged spread" can also be seen in this 1921 picture of him with the Douglas racing car at Brooklands!

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/douglas-racing-car-of-sl-bailey-at-the-jcc-200-mile-race-news-photo/624163318

Some details of the OHV engine can just be seen.

The frame of Lounde's bike posted above appears to be OB rather than OC given the front and rear brake shoe lever mounting lug locations? Rear wheel is obviously not OB, engine could be either OB or OC. Either way - as Leon said above -it deserved better!

well done Leon on getting to the 100th reply of this thread with the word "century" in the advert you posted!.



« Last Edit: 12 Dec 2018 at 21:47 by Hutch »

Offline Doug

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #102 on: 13 Dec 2018 at 00:37 »
All three bikes pictured at Wellington Speedway are (or started out as) OB models. The OC would have the rear axle lugs casting like the DT/SW and TT/IoM models had. OB had the simple plate lug like the RA.

-Doug

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #103 on: 18 Dec 2018 at 07:29 »
Doug, Thanks for the clarification on the OB/OC rear axle lugs. that confirms all 3 bikes to have started life as OB's

 I have just come across this interesting British Pathe film on the1923 IOM Senior TT. Great footage of RA's, the atrocious weather, Sheard finishing and  we catch a very short glimpse of Les Bailey moving towards the camera and out of shot at about 1:23 and then another with him congratulating Tom Sheard for the win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJQuuJc9-o


cheers

Ian

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #104 on: 18 Dec 2018 at 07:39 »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #105 on: 08 Jan 2019 at 01:22 »
From the video of the 1923 TT win, there appears to be some poignancy in Les putting his hat across his chest rather that waving it in the air triumphantly for Tom Sheard, possibly because the day before (Thursday 14th June 1923) was the funeral of William Wilson Douglas? (reported in the Western Daily Press, Bristol 15 June 1923). He had passed away on Sunday 10th June 1923.

This, along with the death of Veasey on a Douglas during the senior TT, would definitely have put a damper on what otherwise would have been a huge celebration after all the efforts in getting the Douglas Factory Team ready for the TT (this information being presented by Clew in The Best Twin).

Unfortunately more bad news was to come. The following day, Saturday 17th June 1923, Miss Helen Douglas, daughter of John Douglas was tragically run over  by a taxi cab while crossing a road at Weston Super Mare on the first day of a holiday and died later in hospital – this was reported in the Western Daily Press on Sunday 17th June 1923.

This must have been an incredibly upsetting time for the Douglas family having a double bereavement in such a short space of time. Helen’s funeral was on Friday 22nd June 1923 with many shocked mourners in attendance including S.L. Bailey. Maybe no wonder we don’t see much of what Les was doing after this time - until he leaves for Australia - given the extremely sad occasion(s) and given he would have been busy with new models, Olympia Show (in October) and maybe also managing the  transition for Pullin to take over his role at Douglas?

-Ian
« Last Edit: 31 Jan 2019 at 06:52 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #106 on: 23 Jan 2019 at 02:27 »
I have been looking into what SLB was up to during WW 1. Information has been hard to come by for that period but I have found a few items. Just before the start of the war we have Les being caught for speeding at Kingston Hill. The speed limit in that area those days was probably 30 MPH and going by newspaper reports of the day was regularly enforced in the UK, in particular when WW1 started. Les was fined what would amount to over 200 Pounds in today's money for exceeding the speed limit by 3/4 MPH! He was probably doing more than that......

"The Hut" in Weybridge appears to have been a "Tea Garden"  and a B&B. It is not far from Brooklands, so was probably where Les stayed when attending racing and testing there?

-Ian
« Last Edit: 23 Jan 2019 at 22:16 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #107 on: 23 Jan 2019 at 02:41 »
In January 1915 Les was in Liverpool trying to expedite the release of a shipment of American made magnetos - maybe Splitdorf Dixie? - as the Bosch ZA2's were no longer available - for obvious reasons!. I have seen a picture (In the Classic Motor Cycle magazine) of lines and lines of 1914 Dougies at the factory awaiting magneto's so they could be completed and sent out for the war effort. I think that picture was from 1915......

-Ian

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #108 on: 23 Jan 2019 at 07:04 »
During 1915 there were industrial disputes at Douglas Bros' mainly over pay conditions and many employees walked off the job. On 3rd May 1915. SLB attended an industrial meeting of 800 men at Kingsley Hall who had downed tools and was reported in the Western Daily Press on 5th;

"...Mr BAILEY (a cycle racer) said they were just as much working for the war as the men the trenches. Personally he thought they should have formed their union without "downing tools." (Dissent.) Personally he would have preferred to have seen them form their union without ceasing work. The War Office had told them they wanted 250 machines week from Douglas's, but in order to do so they would need night shifts. . Enrolment of members in the union followed, during which audience sang " Tipperary" and other songs. ....."



 SLB also spoke at the Douglas works, doing his part for industrial relations as reported in the Western Daily Press, Bristol May 8 1915;

"THE DISPUTE AT KINGSWOOD. WILLIAM DOUGLAS & HIS MEN. Yesterday, Messrs Douglas Bros.' employees, numbering 458. who are still at work, assembled in the dining hall adjoining the works, and heard what Mr W. Douglas had to say on the present crisis. Mr W. Douglas, who spoke on the war crisis, said he did not think it was an occasion for anyone to think of money-making before duty. He added: I have been quite satisfied to supply goods to the War Office and the Government, not only the old price charged before the war, but even at reduced prices. A good many people are under the impression, that have received enhanced prices, owing to the demand, but this is not the case. To show my appreciation in practical manner of the men who have stood me, they shall receive an advance of per cent wages each week, every man and boy on the place. (Applause.) In addition to this, I am going to give you another 5 per cent., which will be added to a card given each one for the purpose every week; but this you will draw at the end of the war, or. if the war is not over by Christmas, 1915, we will make the first payment on the Christmas. (Applause.) I know it is necessary you should have some increase, on account of the, increased cost food and provisions of all kinds. Speaking to the workers subsequently, Mr S. L. Bailey said the bonus being given by Douglas did not come from the Government, it was from his own pocket. After alluding to the fact that the works had been kept open for the sake of the men in the early days of the war, and machines were accumulated without any prospect of their sale, he said had been a slice of luck that they were able to sell the machines to the Government. He added: There are quite a number of pals having a rest, who went out on Monday, and are not coming back until they are tired having a rest. Now, on Monday morning Mr Douglas walked through the works, and not a single complaint was made to him, neither did a single man speak to him. and no mention was made that the men required anything fresh. He walked down the road the works the men were leaving for their lunch-time. and not a single man complained. However, the men did not return after lunch. In future, that there will be no excuse for complaints, we are having a suggestion box. That box will be the means of direct communication between " man" and " master.' It will there for you workmen to put any complaints or suggestions, except, of course, trivial things, as we do not want the box abused. Another thing I want to mention. You may have pals relations who think the works are closed to them. Now. if you see any them will you tell them the works are open, and always will open, for the men to return either individually collectively, and they will not victimised in any way. They can return singly in a body, whichever they like. (Applause.) Not a single man will be victimised in any way. Mr Bailey added that all the workmen were to have badges shortly "

It is interesting the statement by Bailey which seems to imply that without sales to the government for the war effort Douglas might have been struggling to sell motorcycles!

-Ian
« Last Edit: 23 Jan 2019 at 22:19 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #109 on: 25 Jan 2019 at 06:01 »
The strike was over fairly shortly afterwards with most men returning to work with a 10% pay rise. I am still trying to find out the significance of the badges that they were issued with.

On the 29th May 1916 the Bristol Western daily Press reported that there was a Quarterly meeting of The "Douglas" Soldiers fund and that the chair was held by Bailey, who remarked after reading the balance sheet that the results disclosed were "surprisingly satisfactory"! The fund had been started by a Mr. Hodges who was a workman at Douglas Bros. and the primary aim of the fund was to regularly forward parcels of smokes, groceries, comforts etc. to their "late" fellow workmen who were new to active service. By that date 734 parcels to 104 soldiers had been dispatched. 8 soldiers on leave and 5 patient inmates in military hospitals had received monetary assistance in lieu of parcels. Bailey suggested that as well as dispatching parcels the fund could also offer a little relief to the wives of the soldiers.

On Feb 7 1917 The Western Daily Press reported that Wounded soldiers were entertained at the dining hall at Douglas's and later that year on 2nd November it was reported that Bailey attended court in a hearing relating to a theft from the factory. interestingly it refers to his position with the company as being the manager of the munition department.

-Ian

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #110 on: 29 Jan 2019 at 07:03 »
Just jumping forward for a moment to 1920 as I have found a possible link to William John Webb that was mentioned in posts #11 and #12 on this thread by Paul and Leon in regards to SLB's B.M.C.R.C. medal for the 1912 All Comers Handicap.

The funeral of a William Webb was reported in the Bristol Western Daily Press 4 March 1920, he was the licencee of the Kingswood Hotel and was 52. This would probably make him to old to be the William Webb whom Paul refers to, but he had a son who is also named William and could possibly be the recipient of Les's medal.


"FUNERAL OF MR WEBB, KINGSWOOD.

The funeral yesterday Mr Win. Webb (52), licensee of Kingswood Hotel, who died on Saturday as the result a motor cycle accident, at Holy Trinity Church, Kingswood, was largely attended. The chief mourners were Mrs Webb (widow), Wm. Webb (son), Mrs Hunt (Redditch), and Mrs Edkins .(Studley, Warwick). There were also present:—Messrs W. Douglas, W. W. Douglas, S. L. Bailey, Gwynne Parry and Geo. Bayley; Messrs Burnham (chairman), S. Fox and P. R. Betty, Kingswood Urban District Council; Messrs P. McWhirter. S. Britton, W. Golding, E. Greenland (Bradford-on-Avon) and McCrae, representing the licensed victuallers; Messrs Arnold Matthews. S. Fox, E. R. Candy, John Mortimer, Issac Bryant and F. W. Higgins representing Kingswood Horse Show; Messrs W. Douglas, W. W. Douglas. S. L. Bailey, W. B. Cox, G. Allan, and H. Harris, the Douglas Club; Messrs T. Mackay and W. Bryant, Douglas Anglers' Club. There were also present:—Messrs W. C. Stone, W. Bryant, A. G. Davies, H. Howes, W. Joines, F. Smith, J. Frv, W. E. Phipps. T. Evans, E. Joy, E. Morris, W. H. Morris, G. Blann. A. Short, A. G. Davies, Mr and Mrs Squires (Fishponds), Mrs Stevens (Brislington), Inspector Goulder, G. Olds, Geo. Randall. C. Manning, F. Pratten. Richardson, T. Evans, W. B. Cox, T. Mr and Miss Evans (Trowbridge), E. Harris, and Baker. The Vicar Kingswood (Canon Dandy) officiated. There were wreaths from Mrs Webb, a iarge cross from deceased's smoke room friends. friends at Studley, Warwickshire, Mr and Mrs Fred Iles, Mr and Mrs Coleman, Mr and Mrs McWhirter,Mr  and Mrs Wallis, Mr and Mrs S. L. Bailey (Staple Hill), Lily and Laura Squire (Fishponds), Mr T. Evans and family (Wingfield), Ashton Gate Brewery. and Mrs Manning. Dorothy and Madge. Mr and Chapple Mrs S. R. Stevens (Brislington), Mr and Mrs Payne (Bedminster), Mr and Mrs Iles. Misses Elsie and Flo Iles, Mr and Mrs Blake,Mr and Mrs Chandler. Mr and Mrs F. Pratten. Mr and Mrs F. Shellard, Mr and Mrs R. Fudge, Mr and Mrs Brown and Doliy. The funeral arrangements were carried out Mr S. Boulton, Kingswood. "

-Ian

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #111 on: 31 Jan 2019 at 02:31 »
I found a reference to a donation made by a W.J.Webb of the Kingswood Hotel so seems to confirm one connection between Douglas, Bailey and Paul's Great Grandfather.

I have not managed to find much more on what Bailey was up to during WW1.... yet, but moving to 1919 I came across some interesting links between Bailey and Sir John Alcock - the pilot of the first Atlantic non-stop crossing by aeroplane. W.W. Douglas was also a friend and I gather they had known each other for some time. Sir John raced a Douglas car at Brooklands and was going to be presented with a new one from the factory for his success in crossing the Atlantic, but unfortunately he was killed in a plane crash in December 1919 before it could be delivered.

This article appeared in the Bristol Western Daily Press the day after Captain John Alcock and Lt. Arthur Whitten Brown's landing in Ireland.

I had read a later article on Bailey when he returned to Australia that stated he had been involved in some aviation activities but I didn't know at the time he was probably  referring to these events. It does appear he played some role in events leading up to the successful crossing.

-Ian

« Last Edit: 31 Jan 2019 at 03:42 by Hutch »

Offline Doug

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #112 on: 01 Feb 2019 at 15:40 »
Some more pictures of the early ohv engines. First is a better picture of the timing side of the 'steel' cylinder engine built for SLB by Bradshaw. Unfortunately I did not document the publication, but it looks like one of the motorcycling periodicals.



This second image looks like the machine seen early in this thread mounted by SLB and F.G. Ball; here being riden by Kickham. Not the clearest of pictures, but I don't think it has the axial fins of the steel cylinder SLB engine, but the radial fins.






-Doug




Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #113 on: 14 Feb 2019 at 04:13 »
Great pictures Doug!, the one of the Bradshaw / Bailey creation showing a lot more detail than the ones previously posted. The one of Kickham at the Liverpool MC speed trial is interesting as it looks very similar to the one shown of Alfie Alexander is on in Leon's post #33 from Jeff Clew's "The Best twin", but from the other side?

I found out that the badges that SLB refers to in post #108 were badges that identified that the wearer was doing important work for the war effort and was needed at home rather than enlisting. These were worn as some members of the public were quite vocal in letting their patriotic feelings being heard and harassing any eligible male to enlist - even if they were needed on the home front in specialist roles.

It appears that Captain Sir John Alcock had a few links with Bristol and the Douglas factory. On the day he was knighted with Brown he attended a Gymkhana organised by the Bristol Motor Cycle Club. This was one of a series of events organised by the club in connection with a visit by members of the Auto-Cycle union and reported in the Bristol Western Daily Press June 23 1919. As part of these events a tour of the Douglas works was made on the 21st and S.L.Bailey announced at the luncheon that Sir Alcock would be coming direct from his visit to the King at Windsor in order to attend their (the Bristol MCC) rally. Sir Alcock also was the guest of members of the Bristol MCC at a dinner later that evening.

In the Whiltshire Times and Trowbridge Advertiser June 21st 1919, it was reported that a congratulatory telegram was sent to Alcock after his successful flight by his good friend Mr. Fred W. Ball of Home Hill Buildings, castle St. Trowbridge, who was Mr. F.G. Balls father. It is stated that at the time that  Frederick George Ball was the head of the experimental and competition department of Douglas Motors and that he had flown with Alcock a number of times in the past.

Very soon Sir John Alcock and Sir Arthur Brown were national hero's and celebrities and very much in demand by the public and Alcocks connections with Bristol as noted in the press is limited. In September 1919 Alcock attended a sports meeting in Kingswood, Bristol to sign 12 programmes for the public (reported in Bristol Western Daily Press September 8th 1919). This sports club was part of Douglas with President Mr. W.Douglas, Vice President Messrs W.W.Douglas, J.Douglas and A.P. Douglas, chairman and treasurer Mr. S.L.Bailey and hon Secretary Mr. F.C. Dunn

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #114 on: 18 Feb 2019 at 04:41 »
What are the chances of finding a copy of the telegram from Alcock to Bailey sent from Clifden if such a thing existed? Close to zero I would have thought. This find seems almost too good to be true.....but I guess stranger things have happened.....?

from: http://www.battle-axe.org/gallery/index.htm

-Ian


Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #115 on: 17 Sep 2019 at 08:20 »
The caption on Doug's image above (https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27948#msg27948) for SLB's December 1912 73-mph ohv Douglas/Bradshaw gives a clue to the internal configuration of the the engine.

Bradshaw's horizontally-opposed racing ABC engine certainly used THREE con rods, but in the caption for Bailey's Douglas engine is describes the cylinders as "offset". This suggests the crank and rods were in the usual Douglas configuration, rather than the three-rod ABC design in which the cylinders were in line.

Cheers

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #116 on: 17 Sep 2019 at 11:28 »
I've not read anything "official" about the con rod/crankshaft arrangement in Bailey's 1912 ohv record-breaker; at least nothing that says unambiguously that "the bike had three con rods".

Higher up in this thread I proposed that the bike did have three rods (as in the 500cc ABC being developed at the same time by Bradshaw at Brooklands). In the last post, I thought I had some evidence that the engine had only two rods. But I've changed my mind again! Sorry.

Have another look at Doug's image of the engine, which likely comes from "Motor Cycling" some time around Dec 1912 - Jan 1913. It clearly shows that the cylinders are "offset", but rather than offset side-to-side they are offset up-and-down. So "offset" describes the "De Saxe" arrangement of the cylinders relative to the crankshaft. The De Saxe arrangement, with the axis of the cylinder ahead of the crank shaft, was quite popular at the time (and at various times since).

In the 24 December 1912 edition of Motor Cycling (posted by Doug early in the thread) there are some details of the engine, which is described thus:

"...Specially light pistons were used, and the connecting rods were set centrally, and are not staggered as on the standard Douglas..."

If "offset" refers to up-and-down, "set centrally" suggests the cylinders were in line, viewed from above.

This can be done with two con rods (knife-and-fork on a common crank pin), but I doubt an engine like this would run free on the stand to 6,700 rpm without shaking to bits.

The other solution is to use three rods and a three-throw crank, as on Bradshaw's ABC racing engine. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27401#msg27401

Re-reading the various descriptions, it's almost certain (!) that Bailey's 1912 record-breaking Douglas used a De Saxe, three-con-rod, three-throw-crank engine.

Cheers

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #117 on: Yesterday at 02:30 »

Just tidying up a few loose ends in my "ohv Douglas history" files.

Higher up in this thread ( https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27414#msg27414 ) there is a photo of Alfie Alexander on an early ohv Douglas with the unusual number plate AE-P2.

I asked if this was a Douglas trade plate.

In my ABC file I have a photo of a rather nice fore-and-aft ABC of unknown age (from the gearbox maybe late/post WW1?) carrying a similar plate P2-AB.

Does anyone know the meaning of these unusual registration numbers?

Thanks

Leon

 

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