Author Topic: S.L. Bailey  (Read 73345 times)

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Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #200 on: 19 Dec 2020 at 10:52 »
Hi Roger,

Sorry, I'm not quite sure where I found the illustration https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27401#msg27401 , but I wonder if it was from "Flawed Genius"? Maybe the ABC Road Motors website? I'm far from home so I can't check just now.

"described in the press in late 1912": The 500cc ABC motorcycle engine - with the three-throw-crank - was described in detail in the motorcycle magazines at the end of December, 1912.

For example, the Motor Cycle issue of 26 Dec 1912  that carried the story of SLB's record-breaking at Brooklands on page 1544 ("... At Bailey's request, Mr. Bradshaw designed and made the cylinders, valve, pistons, and connecting rods of an exactly similar type to those used in the new [ABC] aeroplane engine, and it was with these that the Douglas motor bicycle was fitted, experimentally, when the above records were broken...") also carried the story of the new 500cc ABC motor cycle engine on p1541.

I'll attach both below. My reading of articles like this, and many others in the period, suggest that Bailey was developing and racing bikes for Douglas in the second half of 1912, and got some assistance from Bradshaw to develop the ohv engine.

The report of Bailey's record-breaking Motorcycling, 24 Dec 1912, p252, contains a contradiction to this storyline, by stating in part that "... Bailey has employed his spare time in having built a very remarkable 500 cc horizontally-opposed twin-cylinder engine..." My views on this are here: https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27403#msg27403 .

But clearly you have new info - please share!

Cheers

Leon

Offline Brooklander

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #201 on: 21 Dec 2020 at 09:10 »
Leon,

Thank you for your prompt reply, i can confirm that the image of the first ABC engine parts was in Barry's book.  Unfortunately he doesn't give the source but on the next page (94) he states that the new engine was revealed to the public in April 1913 so I suspect that was the date of the picture.  That fits in with the other information I have (the first 1913 catalogue) which contains a different picture of the same components.
This would then be in line with ABC's approach to announcements of its aero engine.  This starts with a brief description of the new engine with scant details at the start of the year.  By April a more detailed description accompanied a mock up of the engine at the Olympia Show and finally an exclusive description in The Aero in the summer that showed pictures of the components to demonstrate their novel features. In most cases no further  trace of the engines appeared in press reports.  In the case of the motorcycle engine this was entered to race at Brooklands in October.  This was in modified form but it didn't appear until January 1914 when it took world records but by that time it had a two throw crankshaft as did the identical  WE Brough engine that was introduced in 1914.

Regards,
 Roger

Offline Brooklander

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #202 on: 22 May 2021 at 08:30 »
There is an article in The Motor Cycle 1913 January, page 35, by Bailey. S. D., on High-speed Engines.
Does anyone have a copy of this as it should throw light on the relationship bewteen him and Bradshaw.

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #203 on: 29 Jun 2022 at 04:52 »
I read in Clew’s TBT a while back that the alleged inspiration for the OHV Douglas engine was one produced by Motosacoche. (page 63 in the 2nd ed.)  I went looking at pictures of various MAG engines at the time, but could not find much that resembled the OHV design used by Douglas. There also did not appear to be any MAG opposed twins either.

I was just looking at the article in Classic Bike April 2022 (pages 62-63) on the 1913-14 MAG engine Matchless works racer (actual bike is in the National Motorcycle Museum).

Is this the OHV design which inspired Bailey / Douglas, that Clew was hinting at?? It certainly has some similarities in the general layout of the OHV mechanism (i.e. rotate cylinders around the bore axis by 180 degrees, swap inlet and exhaust ports, cast the fins along rather than around the barrels and lay flat for opposed twin ??). No sure, but nearest "inspired by MAG" I have seen so far!

Looks like  the Matchless / MAG racer design was possibly to be carried over to 1915 for the TT and other racing duties, but cancelled due to WW1?

(Edit:- BTW A general manager for Motosacoche in the early days was Osborne L. de Lissa who was born in Sydney (? - yes https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Osborne_Louis_De_Lissa) Australia - so may well have had links to Bailey.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0502.htm. )

Cheers
Hutch
« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2022 at 06:04 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #204 on: 29 Jun 2022 at 06:23 »
Hi Ian,

Motosacoche made some beautiful engines - the one used in the TT Matchless pre-WW1 is a lovely example. Yes indeed the pushrod-rocker-valve-head arrangement could have influenced the design of the "Sports" motor - if we review the timeline above I think this motor was first seen in the hands of Tudor Thomson et al. early in 1920. So that timeline would work. Keep in mind that many other Clew timelines don't work (sorry Jeff - it was harder to research when he was writing than it is now), such as the photo on SLB (first edition, fig. 22, p57) that shows SLB on a sports-style racer with dummy rim brakes "in 1919".

So much was learned from aero engine development in WW1, yet the pre-WW1 ohv MAG racer had all the right things going on very early. Great design.

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #205 on: 29 Jun 2022 at 08:00 »
Hi Leon,

Yes Motosacoche certainly made some nice engines and the Matchless engine pre WW1 does appear to be quite an advanced design for its time - pity the war came along and interrupted proceedings! Quite a rare beast tho'. with presumably only one survivor that was resurrected from the ashes of the National Motorcycle Museum fire.

Jeff Clew did a remarkable job with the tools he had - we do have it easier for some things now - presuming the information is in electronic and thus searchable form. He would have still had access to some of the people directly involved in period tho' which would have been an asset - and possible some family and factory records that we don't have access to today. Yes it appears in this case the timeline fits (if you consider the war years). I wonder whom or where he got the "alleged" terminology from?

I had a quick look for the first reference to the Douglas Sport OHV engine and so far the earliest mention I can find of a "production" version from The Motor Cycle October 24 1920. It mentions some of the development and success of the engine on the race track in the article entitled "A sporting model Douglas".

EDIT:- Pictures and information of Alexander at 1920 TT and Bailey at Brooklands during 1920 in Leon's reply No. 44 in this thread.

Cheers

Ian


Link to post 44 added - Dave, 29Jun2022
« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2022 at 09:11 by Dave »

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #206 on: 29 Jun 2022 at 10:09 »
Yes the "production" version of the "Sports Douglas" was late 1920. But going back earlier in 1920, the 1920 Senior TT Douglas looks even more like the MAG setup, including the return springs for the push rods that were absent in the production models. You'd have to think that the designers at Douglas liked the look of the MAG. The 1920 TT Matchless used a MAG twin similar in design to the pre-war engines.

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #207 on: 01 Jul 2022 at 04:51 »
Great picture of the OHV Douglas cylinder Leon. The pushrod springs reappeared with the DT in the late '20's in a slightly different guise - indicating they were probably necessary!. Yes there are a lot of similarities between this and the circa 1914 M.A.G. engine used in the Matchless. I wonder who actually designed the two setups?. was the M.A.G. engine made by the Swiss or by the U.K. M.A.G. establishment?

I read on the internet (....don't believe all you read!!...) that the circa 1914 Matchless M.A.G. might have been the first hemispherical head O.H.V. motorcycle engine?? Not sure of that at all (as it is a bold claim by whomever made it!), but it was certainly advanced for its age. There may be more info in the book "The Matchless Colliers" by Bill Cakebread but I don't have a copy of this.

Slightly off this particular topic but related to the time and thread, here is a picture of A.E. Wills in the 1920 Junior TT. He was a DNF. Picture from Motorsport Images. https://www.motorsportimages.com/photos/?race_type_id=149&event_id=267665.

Will's bike looks quite out-of-date for 1920........(Rider identification and Date provided by Motorsport Images)

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2022 at 04:58 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #208 on: 01 Jul 2022 at 05:43 »
Yes looks like it is A.E. Wills on the Douglas OHV 2 3/4 HP in the 1920 Junior TT as this is a picture of the carburettor from The Motor Cycle June 17th 1920.

- Hutch

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #209 on: 01 Jul 2022 at 09:46 »
Looking into Degory Carburettors came across this

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #210 on: 01 Jul 2022 at 11:09 »
Push rod return springs were a pretty common thing, but their design and position varied a lot.

For example, F.E. Baker's ohv Precisions pre-WW1 had their push-rod springs enclosed in cylindrical housings down the bottom - exactly as implemented by Norton on their "ES2" (some say "Enclosed Spring 2") of the late 1920s. Certain that who-ever implemented the design at Norton (said to be Ernie Searle, another candidate for "ES") had seen the Precision! Similarly for the 1920 Senior TT bike: it's certain that who-ever implemented the design at Douglas (no doubt Bailey was heavily involved) had seen the MAG!

There were other push-rod-return spring designs at Douglas after the 1920 TT and before the DT: some Sports-style engines had little extension springs that attached directly to the rocker arms at one end and the rocker supports at the other. I'm pretty sure that these came from Douglas, but maybe owners or tuners were responsible?

Re the MAG design: The Motosacoche headquarters and factory was in Switzerland (Motosacoche, Acacias, Geneva, from memory), so presumably all development was done there. The link a few posts up is a fascinating insight into Osbourne De Lissa's contributions.

Re the 1920 Junior TT bikes: The Motor Cycle said, "Alexander's Junior T.T. Douglas is the original 1912 machine on which he won the Spanish T.T., but it is now equipped with a six-speed gear of a novel kind." I don't think so, but it looks very like a re-heated 1914 TT bike, rather than the 8-valve bike that was the main Douglas racer through 1919. The "six speed gear" was the same arrangement as that used on the AJS machines: a three-speed gearbox coupled by two different primary drives, which were selected by a dog clutch. Useful but fiddly, and that sort of thing disappeared in later years.

Cheers

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #211 on: 01 Jul 2022 at 11:39 »
There were other push-rod-return spring designs at Douglas after the 1920 TT and before the DT: some Sports-style engines had little extension springs that attached directly to the rocker arms at one end and the rocker supports at the other. I'm pretty sure that these came from Douglas, but maybe owners or tuners were responsible?

Actually, I got that wrong - the springs go between rocker arms, either singly or in pairs. So they're not really "push-rod-return" springs, but they perform a similar role. Here's Pullin record-setting in September 1922 with the two-spring version - perhaps he rather than Bailey was responsible for this design? There's probably a patent somewhere...

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #212 on: 04 Jul 2022 at 02:34 »

There were other push-rod-return spring designs at Douglas after the 1920 TT and before the DT:

Yes I think some later TT bikes (1927?)  had push-rod return springs before the DT. I will look for a picture.

Re the MAG design: The Motosacoche headquarters and factory was in Switzerland (Motosacoche, Acacias, Geneva, from memory), so presumably all development was done there.

Could be, information is scarce. The London M.A.G. factory at Willesden Junction,  was not that far from Matchless at Plumstead as the crow flies and De Lissa had earlier links (1909?) to the Collier Bros?. Will try and dig a bit deeper....

I was wondering what other components used in the 3 1/2HP Sports engine we could possibly find the origins of. Seems like the gudgeon pin securing copper domes and the basic crank detachable counter weight setup was used on the earlier 3 1/2 HP side valve spring frame model as described in The Motor Cycle 1st May 1919.

This gudgeon pin securing method may have only been used for a short time on the S1 and replaced by a different method (using a split pin). Also the detachable counterweight securing method appears to have been altered for the S1 , but the basic principle is the same. The method of retaining the big end rollers was altered for the S1 tho'.

The Motor Cycle article from 1st May 1919 also appears to have  provided an answer to which model Douglas, the engine picture on page 203 of Clew's “The Best Twin” ed 2 came from - maybe not a Williamson?!!

So the 3 1/2 HP sports engine appears to be an amalgam of designs from a few different sources with contributions from Bailey, Pullin, Moore, (Edit) W.W. Douglas, design draftsmen like Curtis and many others.

1st May 1919 wasn't long after WW1 finished and maybe indicates that Douglas were possibly working on the design of the 3 1/2 HP side valve spring frame machine through the war years??

cheers

Hutch


« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2022 at 08:24 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #213 on: 04 Jul 2022 at 07:36 »
So the 3 1/2 HP sports engine appears to be an amalgam of designs from a few different sources with contributions from Bailey, Pullin, Moore, (Edit) W.W. Douglas, design draftsmen like Curtis and many others.

Hi Ian,

Motorcycles were all ultimately developments of earlier models, perhaps from the "home" factory or copied (inspired?) from elsewhere.

As I outlined way up the thread, my view is that the S1 would not have existed, ever, were it not for Bailey. I think there's a fair bit of evidence to support this: https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27489#msg27489

(If you want the evidence, go back to the end of page 1 of this thread and work through the posts that lead up to it.)

Most of the innovations that made the S1 a great bike were Bailey's, and I'd even guess it was he who noted the MAG design and brought the good bits into the new Douglas.

Cheers

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #214 on: 04 Jul 2022 at 07:46 »
So the 3 1/2 HP sports engine appears to be an amalgam of designs from a few different sources with contributions from Bailey, Pullin, Moore, (Edit) W.W. Douglas, design draftsmen like Curtis and many others.

Again way back up this thread I noted Pullin's first ride on a Douglas at Brooklands was in July 1921:
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27566#msg27566

It's such a long thread, perhaps I changed my mind later, but if so please let me know where. I don't think Pullin was involved in the design of the S1?

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #215 on: 04 Jul 2022 at 08:23 »

Again way back up this thread I noted Pullin's first ride on a Douglas at Brooklands was in July 1921:
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27566#msg27566

It's such a long thread, perhaps I changed my mind later, but if so please let me know where. I don't think Pullin was involved in the design of the S1?


You are most likely correct Leon. I will retract my comment about Pullin being involved in the design of the S1.

Ian

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #216 on: 11 Sep 2022 at 01:34 »
I recently found these postcard pictures on the web. They were described as "WW1 Portsmouth Army despatch riders on Douglas motorcycles c.1916". I'm not sure that the description is completely correct? :-). There was a 3rd postcard in the collection for sale (I did not buy them) of a dispatch rider on a Triumph.....not a Douglas for a start.... I guess dispatch riders would have loved to have this speedy Douglas at the front rather than the standard side valve 2 3/4hp (!) but I'm not sure this machine ever saw active service in WW1...? :-) The picture appears to be of a couple of unknown military types posing for pictures on an early OHV Douglas in someone's back yard or maybe a park. Somewhere in Bristol maybe?

I have seen several pictures of bikes associated with the Douglas factory with number plates with a prefix of "ADD" - so is ADD 10 a works bike or on "works" plates?. This machine looks quite similar to Alcock's bike posted several times earlier in this thread (i.e.. the exhaust system). Alcock's machine has some different features tho', like the valanced front mudguard etc. Same machine or different?? The postcard bike also appears to have some similar features to A.E. Wills machine in the 1920 IOM Junior  TT. (Note what appears to be dual oil pumps on the tank).

I gather Douglas factory did entertain troops during WW1 from time to time, is this one of those outings or something totally different? Maybe the persons in the picture are Dispatch riders from Portsmouth having a day out at Douglas?? No idea and pure speculation on my part. Does anyone know anything more about these pictures? The uniforms may be a clue....

Cheers

Hutch


Offline eddie

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #217 on: 11 Sep 2022 at 07:56 »
A-D-D 10 ??  - A Douglas Development (number 10)?

  Eddie.

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #218 on: 11 Sep 2022 at 08:03 »
I like it Eddie! But I suspect it is a more mundane trade plate.

As discussed elsewhere https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg29111#msg29111 these usually had the format "letter letter - letter number". So despite the sign writing, I think you read this one AD-D10.

We've seen AD-D2 [edit: not AD-D1] on the "mini Douglas", so I wonder if AD-D1... AD-D10 were trade plates issued to Douglas, or perhaps one of the key Douglas dealers. I bet someone out there knows the codes...

By the way, very lovely sporty Douglas, clearly related to the 1914 TT bikes.

Leon
« Last Edit: 11 Sep 2022 at 08:11 by cardan »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #219 on: 11 Sep 2022 at 09:12 »
Eddie and Leon,

:-) great replies ! The couple of similar plates I had seen before were the miniature Douglas 2 3/4 plate that Leon mentions, and I have attached the other one - Looks like it is A-D-D-5. From the Stilltime Collection and appears to be a spring frame prototype but without the  rear spring frame ? !! You can see the pivot point for the rear swing arm and where the springs may connect to the frame tube under the rear of the tank....but its rigid in the rear!!.

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 11 Sep 2022 at 09:23 by Hutch »

Offline eddie

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #220 on: 11 Sep 2022 at 09:24 »
There are a few oddities with Douglas registration numbers. At the time, Kingswood was outside the Bristol boundary, so machines registered by the factory usually had Gloucestershire registrations, but for some obscure reason, Douglas registered some machines at their Bristol showrooms, so they recieved the Bristol letters - 'DD' (My 6 days bike is KDD466). When that OHV 2¾ was produced, the registration plates would have had just the 2 letters - so maybe you are right in that it could be an early trade plate, but it just struck me that ADD 10 was a very appropriate number - even if it was by pure co-incidence!

  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #221 on: 11 Sep 2022 at 09:56 »
Eddie,

Yes you could be correct and as you say it is just a coincident. I gather Douglas road tested the machines they manufactured on the road. I doubt they would have registered every one individually just to do that and would have had trade plates of some description? All of the 3 machines we have seen so far with "A-D-D" seem to have some association with the Douglas Experimental Department - so maybe that was the prefix to their "trade plate"? Don't know and Just a guess on my part....:-)

I had  a look through my collection of pictures and have not found any more with "A-D-D-...." plates on them. Could also be that it was something that Douglas did for publicity pictures and had nothing to do with actual road legal registrations (?) so your initial suggestion may well be correct - A Douglas Development number 10, but we do have yet another Douglas mystery to A-D-D to the collection! :-)

Cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 11 Sep 2022 at 12:29 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #222 on: 12 Sep 2022 at 00:28 »

......A mystery however is the 4-valve-per-cylinder OHV motor that appeared at Brooklands in 1919. The cylinders were one-piece and were said to be aluminium. ......

The frame in which this motor appear is a precursor to the S1 (or a development from the 1914 3 1/2/4 hp model), with splayed down tubes but a single tube cradling for the motor. So far as I can see, all pre-war racers used the single-down-tube frame.

Leon

I was recently searching for Douglas motorcycle pictures in the Motorsports Image Website;
 
https://www.motorsportimages.com/photos/?race_type_id=&search=douglas+motorcycle

 and found that there was a picture that I had missed last time I looked, of what appears to be the same bike (and maybe the original of the same picture? EDIT:- you can see the leg of the person in the background so i think it is the same picture) that appears in The Motor Cycle (from September 4th 1919) article that Leon posted way back near the start of this thread and also mentions in reply #39.

This picture is very clear and shows great detail. One thing I noticed was the rear brake lever setup - one that is quite different to the production model version of the day. It seems to match the setup on A.E Wills 1920 Junior TT machine? There appears to be only one oil pump on the tank in this machine tho'. I don't know if this machine morphed into the A.E. Wills bike or it is a different machine?

Unfortunately the picture does not quite show us the valves as I would like to see how they might have configured the 4 valves per cylinder :-)

Cheers

Hutch

« Last Edit: 12 Sep 2022 at 01:34 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #223 on: 12 Sep 2022 at 03:47 »
There are a few oddities with Douglas registration numbers. At the time, Kingswood was outside the Bristol boundary, so machines registered by the factory usually had Gloucestershire registrations, but for some obscure reason, Douglas registered some machines at their Bristol showrooms, so they received the Bristol letters - 'DD' ........
  Regards,
                Eddie.

Eddie and Leon,

I think you are onto something with the Gloucestershire vs Bristol registration numbers Eddie. This info. apples to cars but may also apply to motorcycles? Towards the end of this document ;

http://www.cvpg.co.uk/REG.pdf

there is a list of two letter registration codes and "AD" is Gloucestershire and "AE" is Bristol. We do see "AE" a few times on registration plates of some of the early machines shown on this forum. So Leon could well be on the money with "AD - D10". Is "D" the trade part of the plate i.e. D for Douglas and plate number 10?. I'm sure there is some expert out there laughing at me and the explanation is simple ! :-).

(EDIT:- One thing I didn't notice before - Alcock's machine is registered AE 4145 and Thornhill's 1914 TT machine (shown in Leon's reply #15) is AE 4144 .......only one number apart, so they may have a lot in common.....)

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 12 Sep 2022 at 06:32 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #224 on: 13 Sep 2022 at 04:55 »
Eddie and Leon,

Yes A.D.D.10 is an appropriate registration number in this case and maybe I was a little slow on the uptake of this  ( :-) )..... ADD 10 miles per hour or maybe ADD 10 horsepower over a standard side valve model !

cheers

Hutch