Author Topic: S.L. Bailey  (Read 18301 times)

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Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #150 on: 18 Oct 2019 at 01:20 »
Later in November, Bailey has been busy and has scored some records for Douglas (28th November 1912 in The Motor Cycle). So maybe he is now ready for the match race? But now on Dec 5th news is filtering through to the press about the new OHV creation by Bradshaw and Bailey.........

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #151 on: 18 Oct 2019 at 01:27 »
..and finally on the 19th news of success on the Bradshaw / Bailey Douglas.

As Roger pointed out, ABC had limited staff, but they managed to turn out a record breaker in very short time! Also Bailey has (as Leon has pointed out earlier in this thread) appeared to have made the switch from Colmore to Douglas.

For the last issue of the year, 26th December, it is reported that in the next issue of The Motor Cycle (1st issue of 1913) would be a report on steel cylinders. I unfortunately donít have any copies of the first half of 1913 for the Motor Cycle Ė does anyone have a copy of the relevant issue or anything else related to the Douglas OHV engines from that period??

A lot happened in quite a short time period! (...and i hope I got it in the correct chronological order - please let me know if I have it mixed up and I will fix it!)

Cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: 18 Oct 2019 at 03:40 by Hutch »

Offline Eric S

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #152 on: 18 Oct 2019 at 07:33 »
What is a "Singer ex pouent"?

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #153 on: 18 Oct 2019 at 22:11 »
Typographic error, should be exponent, i.e. someone who supports a particular cause, belief, etc. : someone who is known for a particular method, style

Offline Doug

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #154 on: 19 Oct 2019 at 20:03 »
Well in French it would be "Singer, of course" which is almost the same thing!

-Doug

Offline Brooklander

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #155 on: 27 Oct 2019 at 12:58 »
Ian,

I see that you have posted the protracted exchange of notes in TMC about the delay in getting SLB's modified engine to the starting line.  I have been looking at Bradshaw's history contained in the minutes of ABC Road Motors from 1914 to 1919.  His motorcycle engines were always late but he was very good with coming up with excuses, so I am not surprised that the Douglas engine suffered from similar problems.
One point on Stanley's cams mentioned earlier.  He was not concerned about the shape of the cams but their timing.  Vic (his real name was Vincent) Horsman also rode a Singer in the same period and he inadvertently swapped the inlet and exhaust cams.  This provided a significant increase in performance as it provided overlap with inlet and exhaust valves open at the same time.  Jim Baxter wrote about this in the VMCC magazine as he owned the Stanley engine.

Regards,
Roger

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #156 on: 01 Nov 2019 at 04:16 »
Roger and Leon,

Apologies for my tardy reply but things have been a bit busy for the last couple of weeks.

Thanks Roger for the info on Stanley and Horsman's cams - very interesting. I agree with your comments with regards to Stanley's lack of concern with the profile of the cams as with side valve engines there is no fear of the valves hitting the piston's so the lift can be large and the aim on a tuned engine is to get the valve opened and shut as quickly as possible and keep them open as long as possible  - so the profile could be quite radical and possibly not as critical compared to an racing OHV one. So Stanley was most likely being coy about the overlap of the two cams rather than the actual profiles (obviously something that is harder to alter with on  2 3/4 HP Duggies as the inlet and exhaust cams are formed on the one part rather than the separate ones on the Singer).

I haven't progressed at all with looking into the Bradshaw / Bailey Douglas cylinder barrel configurations - my drawings of the locations of the barrels with respect to the holes in the crankcases started to look like "Spirograph" pictures (!) - so I have decided to look at a different approach when I get a chance to get back into the shed. Roger, I concur with your comments with respect to your "digitally altered" picture of the engine in post #141. It is looking more likely to me, that the 3 throw crank / 3 rods configuration was not used on this engine - but desaxe cylinders are still a possibility.

Leon, you commented in post #39 that the OHV engine shown on page 44 of Clew's "The Best twin" was more likely 1919, rather than 1913 and that it could be an 8 valve. When I enlarged the picture for post #140, I noticed that the timing cover, which at first appeared to be a later one piece design in fact looks like it was a modified version of the earlier two piece design. Also I thought it was hard to see the valve setup to confirm that it was in fact 4 valve per cylinder rather than 2 valve - it would be nice to find another picture of this engine to be able to confirm this one way or another. So I think this engine is possibly pre WW1 but was not used until after the war in 1919  ?

Some years ago (maybe 6?) I came across the attached picture of a 2 3/4HP Douglas. I apologise for the poor quality but that is all I downloaded at the time from the internet. I don't recall any details of it other than it was supposed to be a Douglas prototype and it was UK based. I went looking recently for the website again but no luck finding it unfortunately. Does anyone know anything about this engine / bike? - is it a genuine Douglas creation or something that an enthusiastic owner has built for themselves? It is obviously 8 valve......

Roger, you asked a question in post #132 re. what Walter Moore was doing between his employment with Douglas and Norton and why would he have joined ABC. I don't know the answer to that - but a while ago I did some research into 3 speed 2 3/4 HP gearbox serial numbers and putting some of this information together with a couple of comments about Walter Moore by Jeff Clew, one that he was reputedly paid a royalty of 1 shilling per 3 speed gearbox (p 42 The Best Twin) and that he was paid much less than some of the munitions workers in WW1 (25 quid a week) at the Douglas factory (pg 55 The Best Twin) I came up with a rough estimate of what he might have been paid in roayalties by Douglas and approximately when.

If you take into consideration the total numbers of 3 speeds used in the 4 HP, 2 3/4 HP, CW and S1/S2 models that were covered by Walter's patent, he would have been paid for over 30,000 gearboxes in total (if the rumour was correct - and I have added the numbers up correctly). For the year of 1920, all new (as opposed to reconditioned WD models) 2 3/4 HP bikes had 3 speed gearboxes. Production of the 4HP was still moderate and there were reasonable number of S1's made as well. So for the  1920 year's production, Walter's earnings from royalties appear to have peaked at about 8000 units and then dropped off rapidly until another peak in 1925 (about 4500 units - mainly for the CW). At one Shilling a box that adds up to a tidy sum of beer money for 1921.....I'm not sure what his salary would have been at Douglas in 1920 but his royalties from the 3 speed gearbox for that year alone would have earned him approx. 400 Pounds and maybe helped his decision to leave Douglas?

Cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: 01 Nov 2019 at 05:46 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #157 on: 01 Nov 2019 at 05:35 »
Leon, you commented in post #39 that the OHV engine shown on page 44 of Clew's "The Best twin" was more likely 1919, rather than 1913 and that it could be an 8 valve. When I enlarged the picture for post #140, I noticed that the timing cover, which at first appeared to be a later one piece design in fact looks like it was a modified version of the earlier two piece design. Also I thought it was hard to see the valve setup to confirm that it was in fact 4 valve per cylinder rather than 2 valve - it would be nice to find another picture of this engine to be able to confirm this one way or another. So I think this engine is possibly pre WW1 but was not used until after the war in 1919  ?

Hi Ian,

Actually I didn't say the engine was "more likely 1919" or that it "could be an 8 valve", rather I said, based on the article I quoted from in the Motor Cycle, 4 Sept 1919, that it WAS 1919 and it WAS 8 valve. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27438#msg27438

Of course the article and illustration may have been "fake news" and the engine was not a "new" 8-valve, but instead a pre-war-2-valve-per-cylinder, but I at the moment I can't think of a why that might be the case.

If the ohv Douglas in your photo is in fact a "prototype", it is unlike any of the others I have described early in this thread. I doubt it's the real deal.

Cheers

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #158 on: 01 Nov 2019 at 06:32 »
Leon,

Ooops, Sorry, I should have worded my post more carefully. I should have posed the question that the engine in the picture in The Motor Cycle from 4th Sept 1919, described as an 8 Valve OHV Douglas engine was maybe not made in 1919 and was possibly not 8 valve. The description in the text of the existence of a "new" 1919 8 valve Douglas engine would be correct though.

The engine in the picture could be 8 valve, but I cannot see 8 valves (I can see how they could be there tho'.....) and the exhaust and inlets would have to be bifurcated in the head given that there appears to be only one inlet and exhaust pipe per cylinder. Some features of the engine appear to be pre WW1 so Clew's description of this engine being for 1913 still could be correct? Hopefully another picture of the engine shows up that shows more detail of the valves.
 
I agree with you that the 8 valve in the modern picture doesn't look like any of the other early OHV Douglas's and that points toward it being an interloper (possibly in a similar way to the Billy Davy's NZ OHC Douglas that was constructed in period.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/110073580/graeme-duckett-billy-davy--an-interesting-life
)
 I only have sketchy recollections of the web site I found the picture on. Hopefully someone has more information with regards to this 8 valve engine and its origins?.

To date I have not found any information at all that definitely identifies genuine Douglas OHV survivors from the very early days.

Regards,

Ian

Offline Hutch

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #159 on: 04 Nov 2019 at 23:20 »
Clarification to post #106 added.

Offline Brooklander

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #160 on: 05 Nov 2019 at 11:01 »
I have been looking at the pictures in the Hartley collection at Brooklands Museum and came across one showing Pilot Officer Alcock standing in front of an unknown aeroplane with a new Douglas ohv which the caption states is a 1914 TT replica.  I think that Alcock's rank indicates that this was taken around the start of the war in 1914.  This certainly shows that he was very much involved with Douglas at that time and is a possible link to SLB.  Certainly Bob Dicker, who was part of the support team that went out to the States for the trans-Atlantic crossing, was part of the ABC team in 1913 and possibly even late 1912 when they were producing the components for SLB's race engine.  I will ask for permission to post the picture.
I have also found this delightful article written by SLB just before his departure in December 1912 that shows that he was very much more than just a rider.  I see no reason to doubt that he did commission the 500cc horizontally opposed twin design that was subsequently taken over by ABC.  Granville Bradshaw did not have any experience of air cooled aero engines or race engines  as he implied; the Star engine was water cooled and was commissioned by Star before he joined the company in late 1909/early 1910.

More on both of these questions as my research on Bradshaw concludes.

Roger

Offline TonyC

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #161 on: 05 Nov 2019 at 12:43 »
Have been looking through my Fathers archive and have found these two interesting pictures.

They are both taken at Brooklands and are very good quality images. A date of 1951 is on the back of one of them so perhaps they were taken from glass slides.

Regards

Tony
« Last Edit: 05 Nov 2019 at 12:50 by TonyC »

Offline Brooklander

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #162 on: 05 Nov 2019 at 13:50 »
Tony,

I have seen both pictures before but not associated the two which have obviously been taken on the same day.  Both at in the Peter Hartley collection at Brooklands but only the one of Ball is captioned.  This gives the same information but adds that the picture was taken in 1914 but the 4 has been subsequently replaced by a hand written 3.
The tree line in the Ball picture shows all of the trees in leaf which would make it more likely to be October 1913 rather than February/March 1914.  The Brewster picture gives a wider view of the trees showing some bare ones confirming the later date.  Both Ball and Brewster did ride a Douglas in the second meeting at Brooklands on 13 April 1914 which was a BARC rather than Bemsee event.  The lack of other competitors in the pictures indicates that this was taken well before the event.

Brewster was a member of the Association of Pioneer Motor Cyclists which was formed after the Second World War which explains the 1951 date.  Phillip "Percy" Brewster was a remarkable rider whose first race at the track was in 1911 and his last, the grueling 200 Miles Sidecar Race, in 1930.  He also presented a remarkable paper on tuning motorcycles for a wide range of events to the Institution of Automobile Engineers in 1926 and produced racing pistons under the name of Martlet.  I bought his scrapbook on Ebay this year and it :( is now in the museum.  I thought of producing some copies of the 1926 paper but ran out of time.

Roger


Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #163 on: 05 Nov 2019 at 20:25 »

Hi Tony,

Lovely photos! Thanks for posting them. "APMC" is (I recall) the Association of Pioneer Motor Cyclists, so maybe the photos were printed in the 1950s for an APMC event. Was your dad a member?

The bikes are both of the "1914 TT pattern", rather than the type used by Alfie Alexander on the beach at Weston-Super-Mare and at Brooklands in October 1913. Hartley's caption for the Ball photo (which I reproduced back near the start of this thread https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27406#msg27406 ) is that it was taken during track tests at Brooklands in (late) February 1914. In the text, Hartley says that Les Bailey, on crutches, acted as timekeeper.

No doubt the bikes had many other outings at Brooklands in the build-up to the TT. Hartley lists the race appearances, but there would have been testing too.

Cheers

Leon


Offline cardan

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Re: S.L. Bailey
« Reply #164 on: 05 Nov 2019 at 22:05 »
Still at Brooklands, but after the TT and just two weeks before the outbreak of war. This is the start of the 350cc Ten Mile Scratch Race.

SLB, second from right, is on his light-weight, long-wheel-base track bike. The engine is one of the 1914-TT-type, although it looks a bit unusual because of the camera angle. The front exhaust exits forward and down to the left, towards the camera in this shot. There is more about this bike and another photo higher in the thread. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27337#msg27337

SLB was a man of steel - suspension was for sissies. No doubt the beaded-edge tyres were inflated rock hard and it must have hurt at 60+ mph. Bailey lead for the first lap, but broke a valve rocker on the second lap and dropped out.

The photo comes from Old Bike magazine, Issue 32, Winter 1999/2000.

Leon

 

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