Author Topic: engine plate T35 (Competition)  (Read 9228 times)

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Offline douglas1947

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engine plate T35 (Competition)
« on: 09 Dec 2015 at 12:04 »
Has someone a drawing or measures for original T35 engine plate to protect the crankcase?
I think it was made out of alloy, but how was it fixed to the frame?

I will be happy to get any information.

Michael

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #1 on: 09 Dec 2015 at 17:01 »
Michael,
             The original plate was 12 guage steel sheet with 2 angle brackets that picked up on the main engine bolt. The front of the plate bolted onto 2 small lugs on the inboard side of the frame downtubes. These lugs were so small that they often got broken off by the plate getting a bash. The original plate only extended to the back of the sump, and often caused problems if you stopped on a root strewn uphill section. Running back would usually cause the plate to slice into the roots, rendering the bike immovable! Those of us who rode our bikes 'competitively?', extended the plate with the tail angled up so that it would slide over the roots.
  Hope this helps,
    Regards,
                  Eddie.

Offline cardan

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #2 on: 09 Dec 2015 at 19:28 »

Eddie I think we need a photo of you in trials action!

Leon

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #3 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 06:56 »
Eddie,
thanks for your reply. I will Leon agree,if you have a photo it will be nice!

There were no singns of the small lugs on my bike, when I had stripped the frame.

I try to send a photo, when the bike was nearly new in 1950, complete with engine plate.

Michael

It did work, because the photo has more than 4KB!
If I get help, I will try again.

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #4 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 07:18 »
Hi Leon / Michael,
                            Attached are a couple of photos from the Old Codgers Trial about 20 years ago - nothing much changed after that (except I got a bit greyer!! - and moved on to sprinting).

  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #5 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 07:25 »
Michael,
             The 2 small lugs were only sheet steel lugs gas welded to the tubes. On my bike I just used 2 'P' clips around the tubes, as they had a bit more 'give' and didn't break off. The bash plate certainly earned it's keep - mine ended up with a perfect imprint of the oilpump in it!

   Regards,
               Eddie.

Offline cardan

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #6 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 07:39 »

Brilliant Eddie. The perversity of using a bike with protruding cylinders is impressive. I sold my last Bultaco trials bike about 30 years ago, but now "old codgers" (or "grey beards" as it's called out here) sounds very attractive. I'd gladly try it on a compy Douglas, but I've never seen one out here.

Leon

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #7 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 10:07 »
Hi Leon,
             Yes, here in the UK the trials Douglas was looked upon as a bit of a joke, but we did manage to wipe the smiles off of a few faces! The width of the motor seldom caused problems in the sections - the motor isn't much wider than the footrests. The biggest problem came when you had run out of traction on hills and had to lay it down - whereas most singles just dug the footrest in and stayed there, our bikes would go skiing on the rocker boxes! They are certainly hard work on the modern nadgery, but I can imagine them being quite competitive in their day (when a lot of sections consisted of a start gate and a finish gate, and it was up to the rider to find the easiest route between them!).

  Eddie.

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #8 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 10:41 »
Michael,
             Please see the attached photos - they are of a replica Comp frame that I built some years ago for a fellow Douglas Club Member. The close up shows one of the lugs for the bash plate.

  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #9 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 15:57 »
Hi Eddie,

thanks for sending the impressiv trails photos with a T35 Competition; very nice bike!!!

Also thanks for the photos of the frame, explaining the lugs for fixing the plate.

Now I understand, why I could not find these lugs on my bike, because mine had a torsion bar frame and I think the studs for the torsion bar fixing were also in use for the plate!

I had scanned in my very nice photo from 1950 (black + white) with proud the 1st owner (Mr Coleman) on the bike.
Unfortunately it was not accepted to attach, because it is too big?

Michael

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #10 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 18:02 »
Michael,
            Apart from your bike being owned by a Mr Coleman, do you have any more of your bike's history? The reason I ask, is that the factory entered a team of 3 riders in the 1950 ISDT, and also another team of 3 in the following year's Swedish Six Days Trial. As far as we know, these were the only swinging arm Competition machines that the factory produced (other than the early Mk3 Sports machines that were ridden in trials). The 1951 machines appear to have been loosely based on the Mk3 Sports, whereas the 1950 machines were specially produced for the ISDT and incorporated shortened 'Plus' frames, 4 gallon 'Plus' tanks and 'Plus' rear wheels. I have the 1950 machine that was ridden by Ted Breffit (see photo)(and it still carries it's scrutineering marks from that event). The cycle parts of the machine ridden by David Tye have also surfaced, but there is no news of the third machine. Likewise, the 1951 machines seem to have disappeared without trace. From what we understand, the 1950 machines were not disposed of through any dealers, but were offered for sale to the works testers. The works despatch book just lists their frame and engine numbers with no other details. Possibly, the same happened with the 1951 machines - they could be out there, but with no provenance.
 If you could send me a personal message with your frame and engine numbers, I will check to see if there is any reference to them in the despatch book.

  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline cardan

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #11 on: 10 Dec 2015 at 22:31 »

That's a magic motorcycle, Eddie. History, good looks and interesting engineering all rolled into one - what more could you ask for in a bike? Do you ride it?

Leon

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #12 on: 11 Dec 2015 at 05:47 »
Hi Eddie,

it is great to see the ex Ted Breffit on the photo; and also good to read, the bike of D. Tye have survived!
A wonderfull machine!
I have not known, that you are also special in trails / competition bikes!

I think it will be necessary to send you the old photo of my bike. It is a 90Plus in competition trim. Would you like to get it sende to your privat email?
I will look again in some notices to tell a bit about the history (But there is not so much to tell).

May be you will know something.

Michael


« Last Edit: 13 Dec 2015 at 22:08 by Dave »

Offline Dave

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #13 on: 13 Dec 2015 at 22:10 »
Photo added to Michael's post above.

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #14 on: 15 Dec 2015 at 18:03 »
Dave,
thank you for adding the photo of my (unusually) 90+ in comp. trim.

I hope Eddie will have a look to the photo,
 or, may be, someone other specialist could tell about that special bike PTW 985.

It has still matching numbers, first registration from 30.03 1950.
It is now in need of full restauration and a lot of work is done this year.

Michael

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #15 on: 15 Dec 2015 at 19:04 »
Hi Michael / Dave,
                             I am not able to see the photo of your bike on my computer. I can see Dave's posting "Photo added to Michael's post above", but there's no sign of the actual photo.
  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #16 on: 15 Dec 2015 at 19:15 »
Hi Eddie /Dave,

on my computer is visuable.
I hope dave can help!

Michael

Offline graeme

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #17 on: 15 Dec 2015 at 23:47 »
The picture isn't visible on my computer either - Dave, there appears to be a problem here

Offline cardan

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #18 on: 15 Dec 2015 at 23:54 »
 Try this:


Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #19 on: 16 Dec 2015 at 05:33 »
Both pictures work on mine.

I have looked a thousend times to that picture. But just now I noticed, its not a shadow under the rear starter number plates, there are black MK3 sports toolboxes under the plates.

I have wondered, why I could not find tool boxes on the bike.
 When I bought it, the alloy MK4/5 boxes came with the bike.

I would like to get the Mk3sport boxes, because it would be nice to restore the bike with high level exaust (was now with low level).

Michael

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #20 on: 16 Dec 2015 at 07:33 »
Many thanks, Leon.

Hello Michael,
                    What an interesting photo! Your bike looks to be a '90 Plus' but set up for what, in those days, was termed 'Colonial Use'.
  The most obvious difference is that it has the upswept exhaust from a Mk3 Sports - but that would have required collars to be fitted for securing the pipes to the cylinder heads - in turn, that would mean that the heatshields were probably held on by clips, rather than having the normal nuts brazed to the pipes (so that the retaining collars can be slid over the pipes). The silencers look to be Mk5 type (smaller tailpipe than the mK3 Sports) with a mounting strap around the barrel of the silencer. These smaller silencers would require the pipes to be longer than the standard Mk3 Sports pipes. Fitting this exhaust system has forced the use of Mk3 Sports toolboxes. The subframe looks to be the standard Mk5/Plus unit but with the original tool box mounting straps replaced by the Mk3 Sports type. The rear carrier looks to be the type available for the Mk5 as an optional extra.
  There seems to be quite a large gap between the sump and the guard - thus my comment that the bike is set up for 'Colonial Use' as opposed to 'Competition Use' - the reduced ground clearance would be a great handicap when trials riding. The engine also looks to be fitted with modified carburettor stubs that allow the carbs to be tucked in closer to the gearbox. These are, in turn, fitted with the Douglas air filter system (very unusual on a 'Plus').
  The bike is also fitted with the normal block tread road tyres of the period, rather than trials tyres (in 1950, Mr Dunlop advised ISDT competitors to use these tyres, as their trials tyres were considered not safe for sustained high speed!).
  This machine is already listed in the LDMCC machine register, and from the engine and frame numbers, would appear to be from the initial batch that was produced for homologation purposes so that the 'Plus' would qualify for entry into the 'I.O.M. Clubmans TT'.
   It might be worth your while contacting the editor of the New Conrod (the LDMCC magazine) as he may have other photos of Mr Coleman or your machine (I have seen his photo before, but I cant think where!).

  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #21 on: 16 Dec 2015 at 07:45 »
Michael,
             Having had a second look at the photo, I think that just the main toolboxes were used - the oval number plates actually replaced the lids!

  Eddie.

Offline eddie

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #22 on: 16 Dec 2015 at 09:33 »
Hi Michael,
                 I have just had an email from the Registrar at the LDMCC - he has also seen the photo of your bike, and from his research into the records for the County of Essex, has found that your bike was supplied on 30th March 1950 by S.A. Coles, High Street, Leytonstone, London E17.

  Regards,
               Eddie.

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #23 on: 16 Dec 2015 at 11:39 »
Hi Eddie,

Im happy that you can now look to the picture.
Thanks for all the interesting informations.

I have the old green log book to the bike.
1st name is S.A. Coles Ldt.; I have thought this is the dealer of the bike.

1st change is to R.H. Coleman in Woodford Green; he changed the address in 1956 to Wanstead.
In 1961 he gave the bike to S.R. Hawkins. He is the last owner on the log book and also stopped the licence payment in the same year.

I wonder what kind of competition he did with this bike?


The toolboxes:
Dont you think the 2 knurled srews are the same for the sports toolbox cover?
The MK4/5 boxes will not give the space for the high level exaust.

The rear carrier is identical to MK5, but missing the long downtube.

Are the high level MK3 Sports pipes longer than normal and are they straight, or have a bend?

The bike was in a poor state, but it is already finished in "90+ Autum Gold" and I have respoked to new rims.
Now Im working on engine and gearbox. My biggest problem is some clearance in the big ends. All the other parts of the engine are okay.

Michael

Offline NeilR

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #24 on: 16 Dec 2015 at 19:22 »
A thread here with some more Old Codgers pics:
http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/49194-douglas-the-unlikely-trials-bike/

Cheers,

Neil

Offline douglas1947

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Re: engine plate T35 (Competition)
« Reply #25 on: 18 Dec 2015 at 10:24 »
Neil,

thanks for the interesting Douglas trails photos.

Michael