Author Topic: 1932 TT Douglas  (Read 22354 times)

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Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #150 on: 19 Feb 2021 at 02:00 »
Leon,

Unfortunately no new pictures of Babl or Bottomly Douglas bikes found so far after a bit of searching, but did find these later pictures from NCR Jul-Aug 1984. Interesting comment about the new tank on the machine Les Taylor is riding - pity there is no mention of the date.

Cheers

Ian

« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2021 at 02:14 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #151 on: 26 Mar 2021 at 22:56 »
Short film of grass track racing at Brands Hatch in 1947. After 0:33 we have some shots of No. 114 piloted by a "Peter Seamore" (sp?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLGeB0Hu3RI

This version doesn't have the ad at the end;

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/farnborough-kent-aka-your-world-in-nine-minutes/query/grass+track

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 28 Mar 2021 at 05:44 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #152 on: 26 Mar 2021 at 23:31 »
Results of the meet here;

https://grasstrackgb.co.uk/brands-hatch-1947/

So looks like the date of the meet at Brands Hatch shown in the film was 28 June 1947?

Programs from some grass track meets at Brands Hatch here;

https://daveriley.weebly.com/brands-hatch-1940s.html

Appears Phil Seymour carried No. 114 for a few meets in 1947. His outfit described as "Thorpe Special" in 1948.

(Edit: E. Oliver appears to be  Eric Oliver, 4 times world sidecar champion, fairly sure "J Surtees" Jack Surtees, John's father)

-Hutch
« Last Edit: 28 Mar 2021 at 05:45 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #153 on: 08 May 2021 at 06:21 »
Further to Leon's reply No.63 above, here is another shot of C.T. Atkin's No 8 in the British Empire races at Brooklands 1933. This is from Motorsport Images;

https://www.motorsportimages.com/photos/?event_id=261793

Interesting the Douglas appears to have the extra valve guide lubrication pipes (? not 100% clear in the picture) seen on the Bury Bros.  and the Clifford No. 34 outfits. Have not seen this feature on 1932 pictures of the TT bikes. Is this a 1933 development?

EDIT: Interesting to compare this to the bike in Leon's reply # 131.....

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 08 May 2021 at 06:46 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #154 on: 08 May 2021 at 08:28 »
Hi Ian,

Another fab photo. Yep that's the Atkins track bike, at the same event at Brooklands, 1 July 1933, as in the photo posted earlier https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg31999#msg31999

The key features of this bike were the Druid ES fork (clearly seen) and the TT-style frame, which is difficult to pick, particularly under that huge tank. The gearbox platform and the cross-over gearbox is one of the clear points of difference, but not seen in either of the photos. Francis Beart fitted a Sturmey box with chains all on the left when he had the bike in the late 1930s. The 1932 TT engine was tested at Brooklands as early as May 1932, in Atkins' track bike. Probably the same cycle parts as in this July 1933 photo.

The bike in reply 131 https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg33038#msg33038 has the Brampton fork and the 4-speed TT SA gearbox, so it was almost certainly one of the 1932 TT bikes.

Not sure when the extra oiling to the valve gear came in, but it would only take a couple of seized guides running flat chat at Brooklands to realise it was a good idea.

Cheers

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #155 on: 16 May 2021 at 04:41 »
Hi Leon,

My "EDIT" was more of a general "thought bubble" as I was looking into who might have developed the 1932 TT Douglas modified to be a Brooklands Outer Circuit machine. My first thoughts was that Atkins may have had a hand in it - but not sure at all. I have done a bit of searching but nothing has turned up about the exploits of this machine so far that might give clues as to whom was involved.

I also pondered what the Atkins frame "F.U." as list in Clew's "The Best Twin" from 1934 might have looked like. It is described as "plated" by this does he mean "Nickel" or "Chromium" plated? or does he mean plated as in being reinforced? Don't know the answer to that either. In the great Stilltime Archive pictures of Atkin's supercharged Douglas the frame does look like it could be plated. But is that just silver paint? Don't know.

(EDIT: Could be electroless Nickel plate - that might explain the dull finish? )

I was looking at dating this machine. It has the drop down gearbox mount so possibly not a 1934 frame unless that is what Atkin's specified ?? More questions.

In trying to date these pictures I was intrigued to see another "outer circuit" machine in the background (circled). I gather Atkin's was pencilled in to do some riding of Joe Walsh's  Zenith in in Belgium during October 1934. Not sure, but I guess it could be the Zenith? Hard to say. If so, then the Douglas may be the "FU" frame machine of 1934 and was later sold onto Beart?.  Too many questions not enough answers unfortunately! :-)

cheers

Hutch
« Last Edit: 16 May 2021 at 05:27 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #156 on: 16 May 2021 at 04:53 »
In searching for information described in my previous post I came across some newspaper articles on the 1932 Ulster GP. The 1932 TT Douglii were going reasonably well but alas reliability issues crept in. C.J. William's broke a valve - maybe why there were extra lubrication pipes fitted later?. Interesting that W.J.C. Hewitt (see Leon's reply #115) gets a ride on a Douglas and was 5th at half distance behind Williams. I cannot find out if Hewitt finished. More digging to do. The Douglii were obviously outclassed but showing some promise.

As William's 1932 TT Douglas was in Ireland did it stay there after the Ulster GP?

Cheers

Ian

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #157 on: 16 May 2021 at 07:50 »
Hi Ian,

First post first.

Written on the bottom of the Stilltime negative (therefore backwards) is "C T Atkins with special Douglas racer". I assume this is the 1934 "FU"-frame-prefix machine mentioned in the Best Twin. Likely Atkins either needed a new frame to accommodate the supercharger, or he just needed a new frame full stop! Brooklands had some massive potholes and his previous frame probably dated back to 1931. My guess is that all the bits from his existing track bike were moved over onto the new frame, plus the new supercharger. A new-style frame would have required new forks, gearbox, back wheel, tank, ...

Did Atkins ever use the supercharged bike?

The plating on the frame was probably electroplated Watts nickel, which was the standard plating process of the day. Like the electroless nickel, Watts nickel came out of the bath dull. It would polish up nicely if needed, but the real purpose was to provide a weather-proof covering that would show early signs of frame damage such as cracks. Chrome plating was just a couple of microns on top of the nickel, but was unpopular on bicycle and motorcycle frames because special care was needed to avoid hydrogen embrittlement of the metal, and, like paint, it tended to conceal early signs of a crack.

I assume this is the bike that went to Beart, who used it with and without the supercharger. Beart also acquired piles of spares - maybe even the old frame.

Re the bike in the background. No doubt this is the famous/infamous Zenith JAP on which Joe Wright set a world record (just over 150 mph I recall) in 1930. No problem with the record, except that Wright - and everyone else - pretended the record had been set on an duplex-framed OEC machine. Even at the motorcycle show. Oh dear... Tommy Atkins' daughter Ursula tell the story about Tommy's involvement with the Zenith: "At the end of September, 1934, Claude Temple announced his intention to attack the World's Motorcycle record. He would use the same Zenith that Joe Wright had used to establish the World Record earlier. The rider would be Tommy Atkins. The bike was tested at Montlhery and taken to Venheyden in Belgium. Attempts were to be made between October 8th and 12th. The gearbox mainshaft broke at 140mph during a practice run and the attempt was abandoned. Ernst Henne raised the World Record to 152.9mph soon after, in Hungary, on October 28. Further attempts by Temple and Atkins were abandoned because of bad weather and bad luck."

The mechanism sticking out the right side of the Zenith in the Atkins photo is the twin magnetos, mounted on the timing chest and bevel driven. The supercharger lived in front of the motor.

Cheers

Leon



Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #158 on: 16 May 2021 at 10:54 »
In searching for information described in my previous post I came across some newspaper articles on the 1932 Ulster GP. The 1932 TT Douglii were going reasonably well but alas reliability issues crept in. C.J. William's broke a valve - maybe why there were extra lubrication pipes fitted later?. Interesting that W.J.C. Hewitt (see Leon's reply #115) gets a ride on a Douglas and was 5th at half distance behind Williams. I cannot find out if Hewitt finished. More digging to do. The Douglii were obviously outclassed but showing some promise.

As William's 1932 TT Douglas was in Ireland did it stay there after the Ulster GP?

Very interesting article about the 1932 Douglases at the Ulster GP, particularly the words from C. J. Williams where he seems to take credit for the post-TT development of the bikes. It's plausible, but I wonder what happened to Worters after the TT? Of course the Ulster was in late August, and Douglas Motors (1932) was to be in the hands of receivers by November, so I guess there was "stuff" going on behind the scenes.

Re the fate of the 1932 racing Douglases, it's hard to be sure. It seems there were three bikes at the Ulster (Williams, Longman and Hewitt), but as discussed higher up the most likely candidate for "the Irish Douglas" is that Paddy Johnston took one of the TT machines to Ireland https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg33142#msg33142 . At least there is a definite story along these lines, so maybe the three Ulster bikes just went back on the boat with the riders.

Also interesting to see in the results that at half distance, Williams and Hewitt, running 4th and 5th, were more than 10 mph off the pace set by the Nortons and Rudge in the first three places. By rights, WIlliams and Hewis should have been further down the order, because in the Ulster GP the 500s and 350s were run together, so the works teams (Norton and Rudge) split their riders between the two classes. If the race was for 500s only, the first six places would have been filled by the Norton and Rudge teams.

Pity everything went so bad so quickly after the 1932 racing season. Not only did Douglas Motors (1932) fold, taking the racing effort along with it, Rudge was in trouble too and pulled out of all racing. Rudge racing limped on for a year or two with a Syndicate organised by Graham Walker, but no such luck for the poor old Douglas.

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #159 on: 17 May 2021 at 23:26 »
Hi Leon,

Thanks for your very informative reply to my many questions and uncertainties.

I was a little unsure about Electroless Nickel being available in 1934. But it appears that it was "reinvented" in the US in the 1940's after Roux patented the process in 1914. Apparently tho' the process was not used extensively until after the 1940's. But as you say it could have been done using the Watts process.

Looks like William's did do another handicap race at Brooklands after the Ulster GP so as you say maybe the 3 32TT Douglii went back on the boat to the UK after the race?

Here are a couple more pictures from the Northern Whig 5 September 1932. (note I spelt Whig wrong on the file name for the picture of Williams (number eight) and Simpson's (number 11) altercation in my previous post.

As usual more digging to do!

Cheers

Hutch



« Last Edit: 18 May 2021 at 01:12 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #160 on: 18 May 2021 at 03:53 »
A bit un-Douglas related, but I do know a bit about the fate of the 1932 TT Works Rudges. As for the 1932 TT Douglases, it's a bit complicated, but at least a couple of them survive more-or-less intact.

Wal Handley crashed his Rudge at what is now called Handley's Bends. It was sent to Australia for the 1933 season, was raced until post WW2, fell into disrepair, but is now largely in one piece in my shed.

Its sister bike, ridden by Tyrell Smith, was raced in Ireland and turned up tired but intact, at a Bonhams action some years back.

Graham Walker didn't really have a senior bike - he rode his 350 with a 500 motor fitted in the Senior TT. Never-the-less "Graham Walker's TT bike" went to NZ (almost certainly his race motor fitted into TT Replica frame), where it was raced until post WW2 before it fell into disrepair. It is now restored, using a lot of reproduced parts.

Finally Ernie Nott's bike has disappeared - we know the engine number, and the approximate frame number, but it has not surfaced.

So the parallels are there - we know the story of the 1932 TT Douglases, but unlike the Rudges none has made it to the present day. That is, unless there is something left of the Bury brothers bike after the NMM fire. Has anyone investigated what happened to the remains?

Perhaps a 1932 TT Douglas might appear one day, say from Bejarano's family in Spain, looking a bit like Tyrell Smith's Rudge! https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22727/lot/190/

Cheers

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #161 on: 18 May 2021 at 22:55 »
Hi Leon,

Yes it would be nice to think there is a surviving '32 TT Douglas in Spain in original condition and there is enough left of the Bury outfit after the museum fire to be resurrected! :-) . The whole saga is a bit of "...what might have been..." but alas that is motor racing!

Attached is a  picture of Atkin's on the Zenith practising for his second (failed) attempt at the record after the gearbox failed on the first attempt. After this attempt maybe he gave up on bike's and concentrated on his car tuning career? Have not found anything yet to indicate if the supercharged Douglas got a run with him at the helm, so it is possible, as you have suggested, that it was never run in anger when owned by Atkins.

cheers

Ian


Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #162 on: 20 May 2021 at 09:30 »
Nice photo Ian - the first time we've seen Tommy Atkins on a motorcycle that isn't a Douglas?

With hindsight, it's a pity that the discussion about Atkins and his machines has been caught up in this thread. The Atkins story is interesting enough that it could have had a thread of its own, and the overlap with the 1932 TT bikes is perhaps not as much as I first suspected.

I mentioned somewhere higher up that I wasn't sure of Atkins' involvement at Douglas after the 1932 TT. He was off racing Cottons with Francis Beart at the Spanish GP in August 1932 (photos please!), and by August 1933 was recruited by V. W. Derrington, London Rd, Kingston, as "tuner-in-chief", working on cars, for which he later became famous. Mixed in with this is racing the naturally-aspirated Douglas at Brooklands in 1933, the acquisition of the supercharged Douglas in 1934, and riding the aging Zenith JAP later that year. I wonder if these outings on racing motorcycles were "recreation" rather than "work".

Apparently post WW2 he was known to ride around local roads on a Vincent Black Shadow, when he wasn't in one his more exotic sports/racing cars.

Unfortunately he doesn't seem to have recorded the events at Douglas after the 1932 TT, particularly as they related to his role there. It must have been a very turbulent time.

Leon

Offline Doug

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #163 on: 22 May 2021 at 04:02 »
I thought the included photo had already been used in this post, but apparently not. It shows a banking Douglas outfit (not the Freddie Dixon banking outfit!) raced by Lofty Daniells, who stated the former owner was Jack Douglas. this had a jack screw operated by the passenger to tilt the sidecar. The location is Lofy's place of business in Ilfracombe, Devon.



Unfortunately there is not a heck of a lot that can be gleaned from the bike relating to the 1932-4 Works bikes.

In a hand written and difficult to read letter on Loft'y company letterhead "E.J. Daniell, Motor Engineer, ESTB. 1946" "Motor cycle sales, repairs and overhauls. Racing and sport car tuning specialist. All British and Continental models." "Works, Hostle Park, Ilfracombe:, dated March 30, 1969:

Quote
Dear Mr. Bhorly (?)

Many thanks for your reply to my Ad. I have had a great many replies and under the circumstances have decided to give the entitled the chance of making an offer. I will sell the 596 as a Solo and fit the Banking chair to one of my other Racing jobs.

The 596cc is complete with petrol and Dope Pistons, 15 to 1 Reduced to 10 to 1, 45-45 camshaft, Solid Flywheel with high foot ch Box on Top Rear cyl.

Twin exhaust pipes also another with Brooklands can. Twin Racing AMAC's going into large Air Box. Large Rear Sprocket 59T for Hill climbs, Grass Track, Etc. Tele forks fitted but Girder Forks with Douglas Front wheel still available to bring back to Post Vintage Spec.  Whilst Photos are scarce until more printed, Enclosed is a recent one.

<<< Paragraph about a Blue Chief omitted>>>

I have raced the Outfit at Brands Hatch, Cadwell, Aerodrome circuts, Hill climbs, Sprints, Grass Track, and S/car Speedway. Jack Douglas was previous owner and still holds mountain record at Brookland and not likely to be beaten now!!!

(signed)

The photo mentioned in the letter I presume being the one shown above.

Google street view shows the present day location of "The Works", approximately at #3 Hostel Park Rd. Presumably Lofty was running his Motor Engineering business out of one or more of the garage lockups.





The end of the wall is a distinctive landmark as is the bay window in the next house down the hill.

-Doug


[Fix typos.  23May21 -Doug]
 
« Last Edit: 23 May 2021 at 14:18 by Doug »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #164 on: 22 May 2021 at 10:31 »
Great stuff, Doug. I particularly liked the sleuthing re the scene of the photo!

The Daniell bike could be the bike on which Jack Douglas set the Mountain Circuit lap record in April 1931, well developed. Or maybe even a 1932 TT job owned some time later by Jack Douglas, but this seems less likely. So hard in the absence of detailed photos or, better still, examination of the machine itself. Has it survived?

Your post also led me to your post elsewhere about the Lofty Daniell Endeavour. That's quite a machine, and a reminder that  a bike like the banking sidecar Douglas, well raced by Daniell in the 1950s, was not maintained with an eye to originality!

Cheers

Leon

By the way, did you notice Harry Potter's Ford Anglia in the photo?

Offline Doug

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #165 on: 23 May 2021 at 14:09 »
Leon,

While I saw the car parked there (must not have been a double yellow line there at that time  :) ) I did not recognize the make and model. Maybe Lofty was going to tune it up so it would really fly...   :roll:

-Doug
« Last Edit: 23 May 2021 at 14:14 by Doug »

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #166 on: 25 May 2021 at 09:50 »
Doug, I second Leon's comments on the E.J. Daniell Machine and your investigations into the location that the picture was taken! Great stuff  :).

I noticed that the date of the letter was March 1969. Is the enquiry from 1969 in Motor Sport Magazine, that Leon found previously, about the same machine or another ex Jack Douglas outfit?? . The enquiry appears to speculate that it was used at Brooklands after 1934 by Jack. I will have to investigate further on that but I have not found anything of Jack's exploits at Brooklands after that year so far.

The sidecar TT was proposed around January 1933 and abandoned due to lack of entries (8 in one account and  a few more in another) and didn't run in 1934 either - not resurrected until the 1950's after being last run in 1925.

Maybe the enquiry was submitted by the purchaser of Lofty's outfit, or maybe by Lofty himself?

I didn't want to muddy the waters in the previous post, but here's another Jack Douglas reference. Motor Sport magazine, December 1969, contained the following request for information:

"Information is sought by a reader about the Douglas sidecar outfit which was built for the abandoned 1934 Sidecar TT and later raced at Brooklands by Jack Douglas. It has a Swill-built Dixon banking sidecar and a 596-c.c. o.h.v. engine, No. 10, the frame number being OF 218. The outfit may have held the 750-c.c. class Mountain lap record. Letters can be forwarded."

I see OF 218 (a 1926-28 IOM TT frame number) is in the Register of machines, now fitted with a DT motor. Ignoring the speculation about the 1934 Sidecar TT, frames like this were used at Brooklands (by Atkins in 1930, for example), and could have been used by Jack Douglas on the Moutain Circuit in 1931.

Leon

I have found that Lofty Daniells raced his 596cc outfit at Croft Airfield in 1950. He did not place in the top four. Still looking for more` results.....and of course pictures.

Cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: 25 May 2021 at 10:16 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #167 on: 25 May 2021 at 10:55 »
That's a good spot. It would make sense if someone bought the (weird non-Dixon) banking outfit from Daniell in mid-1969, together with the story of the Jack Douglas ownership, and wrote to Motor Sport looking for more info.

I must be a bad person, because I don't believe much of what I read, thus my skepticism of "built for the the 1934 Sidecar TT race", "later raced at Brooklands by Jack Douglas" and so on.

However Daniell's bike in Doug's photo could have been an old racer, could have been the bike used by Jack Douglas to set the Mountain Circuit sidecar record in 1931, and could be frame OF 218 and engine 10. If Danniell acquired the bike pre 1950, when the bike was only 20-or-so years old, he could have known if an earlier owner was Jack Douglas, but notice that Daniell doesn't say "this is the bike Jack Douglas raced at Brooklands", or even "I bought the bike from Jack Douglas". It could just be an old racer story...

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #168 on: 03 Jun 2021 at 06:17 »
......
I must be a bad person, because I don't believe much of what I read, thus my skepticism of "built for the the 1934 Sidecar TT race", "later raced at Brooklands by Jack Douglas" and so on.

......
Leon

 :) No problem with being a sceptic Leon! I guess tho' thesedays we have the advantage of the internet to at least be able to easily check up on some of the dates and details of events. I agree tho' some of it (or all....!) could just be a old racers tale.

Speaking of the advantages of the internet here are a couple of pictures of Bejarano from AS magazine 7th July 1932. I will try and translate the article attached to it when I get a chance (unless anyone else wants to have a go! :-) ).

Cheers

Ian


Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #169 on: 03 Jun 2021 at 07:53 »
Great stuff! June 1932 is TT time, but these photos show Bejarano on what is (presumably) a 1931 Senior TT Douglas, itself a fabulous machine.

I revisited a photo of Bejarano back near the start of this thread https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg31650#msg31650 which shows him with the 1932 TT Douglas in Spain, and another racy Douglas. However I am sure that bike is a racy roadster and not 1931 TT.

The other machine is a Model 90 TT Sunbeam, dating from 1930 at the latest. Sunbeam won the TT in 1929, was competitive but outclassed in 1930, and faded after that. Tempting to think this could be a 1930 Sunbeam factory bike, but I have no real idea of Sunbeam involvement in Spain in the early 1930s.

Cheers

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #170 on: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:04 »
Leon,

Here is where it might get interesting tho';

Bejarano appears to have been in the 1932 TT as a private entry (incorrect spelling of his name, but a short piece in The Brisbane Courier a month later spells his name correctly. Bit strange the information was so late but maybe just a filler?), So possibly he entered on the machine shown in the pictures above?. Seems he crashed on his first circuit. Williams also was in the wars...and hospital. Bejarano appears to be a non starter in the senior TT tho' according to the official results online. Looks like C.T. Atkins did some practice on the 1932 TT Douglas but also non starter? Some more investigating to do.....

(Edit: Possibly the delay in reporting background information on the TT a month late was due to the time it took the U.K. Newspapers to get to Australia? Not sure.)

Maybe Bejarano's involvement in the TT led to him securing one of the works bikes to take back to Spain? (....maybe also to replace his own machine if it was damaged beyond repair?).

Might be more clues in the Spanish article so I will have to have a go at translating it!

Poor sheep BTW!

cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:41 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #171 on: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:59 »
Hi Ian,

Atkins was the reserve rider for the Douglas team at the 1932 TT, and would have practiced on the spare bike with the D number plate. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg32051#msg32051

When Williams crashed in practice injuring his knee, it was Bejarano - not Atkins - who was mooted as a possible replacement rider in the race. As outlined somewhere higher up, Bejarano practiced on Williams' bike, and crashed it at exactly the same place that Williams had crashed.

Williams recovered sufficiently to ride in the race.

Cheers

Leon

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg32068#msg32068

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg32205#msg32205

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg32299#msg32299



Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #172 on: 04 Jun 2021 at 00:58 »
Leon,

I didn't re-read all of your previous posts and some of the finer details were lost on me, possibly due to the length of this thread! I knew Williams raced as he is listed in the official results as DNF. But only two starters out of 4 Douglas machines and 5 riders?

[EDIT: 3 starters I accidentally missed Johnston from the official record as he is listed as riding a Cotton.]

The question I was pondering was how did Bejarano get to ride a Douglas factory TT bike when he was not one of the four riders originally listed? If I had translated the article in AS Madrid 7th June 1932 I would have answered my question!.....(why do something today when you can put it off until tomorrow?...or something like that!).

Using Google translate certainly sped things up tho' and the results are below. I think one can get the jist of the article even if it didn't convert 100% to readable English. I did it paragraph by paragraph - hopefully that doesn't make it too unreadable? If so let me know and I will re-do it.

"....
Un español camino de ser "as" de la motocicleta en Inglaterra
Luis Bejarano, el co rre d o r vizcaíno, disputará el
Tourist Trophy de la Isla del Hombre
Su viaje a Inglaterra. Sus impresiones de Brookiands,
la "Meca" de los fervientes del motorismo

A Spaniard on the way to being a motorcycle “ace” in English
Luis Bejarano, the Biscayan runner, will contest the isle del Hombre Tourist Trophy
Your Trip to England. Your impressions of Brooklands the “Mecca” for motorcyclists


Apenas trasceniJio fuera del ambiente motorista local la noticia de su marcha i
a Ingrlaterra. Un reducido grupo de amigos le despidieron para la travesia cuando i
el subio a bordo. Y unas linea8--breves—en la Prensa dando cuenta del viaje: '
' Luis Bejnrano. el corredor "amateur” vizcaino de motocicletas, ha salido para •
Bristol, solicitados sus servicios por una importante factoria britanica.” Los an- i
clonados, que ca.sualmente se enteraron de su marcha, todo lo mas que de el
esperaba la mayoria de ellos era que regresase dominando la fonetica del "all
rlghf’. Que la Gran Bretafla es al motorismo lo que al boxeo los Estados Unidos...

The news of his departure barely transcended outside the local motorcyclist milieu.
to England. A small group of friends dismissed him for the journey when i
he got on board. And some linea8 - brief - in the Press reporting the trip: '
'Luis Bejerano. the "amateur" Biscayan motorcycle racer, has come out to Bristol, requested their services by an important British factory. " The years i
cloned, who occasionally found out about his departure, everything more than him
expected most of them was that he would return mastering the phonetics of "all
right '. That Great Britain is to motorcycling what the United States is to boxing ...


Un dia bace ya muchos dias de esto— el "rojo” se decidio por el pequeno
motor sobre dos ruedas: una inscripcion para participar en una de las pruebas
locales organizadas por Pena Motorista Vizcaya. Gano. De desconocido paso a
•ser el heroe de la jomada. Este exito facil le animo a mayores empresas. De entonces
a aca, su nombre nunca falto como el de un concurrente en las carreras
nacionales e Internacionales de la Pena: Castrejana, Autzagana. el Cristo. Guecbo-
Berango... tln todas las pruebas evidencio un estilo limpio, elegante, una habilidad
y una audacia poco comunes. Asi. al comenzar la temporada de 1931. Bejarano
estaba cerca de ser un “as” nacional, y para confirmar esta su valia,
encargo a Inglaterra una motocicleta pura raza Isla de Man, que es tanto como
ilecir. refiriendose a un caballo, un "pura sangre” . Y se lanzo...

One day after many days of this— the "red" decided on the little one
motor on two wheels: an entry to participate in one of the tests
venues organized by Peña Motorista Vizcaya. Won. From unknown he went to
be the hero of the day. This easy success encouraged bigger companies. Then
here, his name was never missing like that of a competitor in the races
National and International Peña: Castrejana, Autzagana. Christ. Guecbo-
Bejarano ... In all the tests showed a clean, elegant style, an ability
and an uncommon audacity. Thus. at the beginning of the 1931 season. Bejarano
he was close to being a national "ace", and to confirm his worth,
commissioned an Isle of Man purebred motorcycle from England, which is as much as
read. referring to a horse, a "thoroughbred." And he launched himself ...


Aquel ano Bejarano establecio primero el "record" de Castrejana. y siguio
despues a Saint-Gautlens, <londe lucho con las primeras figuras francesas por
el Grand Prix de Comminges, y una ‘panne” de motor le hizo perder la victoria,
de la que estuvo a ilos dedos... Basto, sin embargo, lo hecho por el en Francia
para revelar su cla.se internacional, y, como consecuencia, tuvo la de que los
Ingle.ses lomasen nota de su nombre: "Bejarano is a good rider", dijeron ellos.
Mas tarde, dos expertos britanicos, "Jim” Douglas y Jack Clapbman, examinaron
al ^'izcaino en el I I Circuito Internacional de Guecho-Berango y Campeonato de
Espana. Gano Aranda el titulo, pero el "rojo” , sin tocar la victoria, acredito otra
vez el merito de .su.s "maneras” de corredor; iba segimdo cuando abandono, y lo
que hizo era algo mas que lo que de el e.speraban los de Bristol.

That year Bejarano first set the "record" for Castrejana. And followed
then to Saint-Gautlens, <londe fought with the first French figures for
the Grand Prix de Comminges, and an engine 'panne' made him lose the victory,
of which he was at the fingertips ... It was enough, however, what he did in France
to reveal his international class, and, as a consequence, had that of
Ingle.ses lomasen note of his name: "Bejarano is a good rider," they said.
Later, two British experts, "Jim" Douglas and Jack Claphman, examined
al ^ 'izcaino in the I I Guecho-Berango International Circuit and Championship of
Spain. Aranda won the title, but the "red", without touching the victory, credited another
You see the merit of his "ways" as a runner; he was second when he left, and what he did was more than what the Bristolians expected of him.

Una carta y un telegrama de Douglas en 1932:
"Venga usted aqui—le dicen a Bejarano—. Todo
listo para hacer su carrera." Desoyendo familiares
consejos, dejando de lado una situacion “ confortable", atendio la llamada
aventurera. Subio a bordo y enfilo la ruta de Cardlff.
Bristol: entrada en la primera manufactura inglesa de motocicletas, aprendizaje
en los departamentos ex|>erimentales, pruebas en carretera, 'visto bueno de
los directores para su capacidad. Ellos confian en el temple del vizcaino. Y se
dispone la construccion de una "montura” especial para el, su ingreso en el equipo
de carreras de la casa y la proteccion de Clapbman, el mejor preparador. Los
pronosticos mas halagilefios de sus amigos espanoles estaban rebasados: Bejarano
compartia ya las tareas de los "ases” de la marca.

A letter and a telegram from Douglas in 1932:
"Come here," they say to Bejarano.
ready to make his career. "Ignoring relatives
advice, leaving aside a "comfortable" situation, he answered the call
adventuress. He climbed aboard and headed for the Cardiff route.
Bristol: entry into the first English motorcycle manufacture, apprenticeship
in experimental departments, road tests, 'approval of
directors for their ability. They trust the mettle of the Biscayan. And
has the construction of a special "mount" for him, his joining the team
racing house and the protection of Chapman, the best trainer. The
more flattering predictions of his Spanish friends were exceeded: Bejarano
already shared the tasks of the "aces" of the brand.


Ahora va a disputar las carreras mas famosas. Esta acampado en 'M'eybridge,
junto a la pista mas famosa del mundo: Brookiands. ~ ^
.Quereis conocer las impresiones del famoso "track” ?
" L A IL U S IO N D E M I V ID A
"Una de las mayores Ilusiones del motorista espanol es conocer Brookiands.
Pues ya lo be visto y he rodado a 100 millas por hora (unos 160 kilometros);
be fisgoneado todo lo que he podido,., y he pasado cinco dias saturandome de
ruidos y penetrado por el olor de la mezcla quemada.
!

Now he is going to compete in the most famous races. He's camped out at Weybridge,
next to the most famous track in the world: Brookiands. ~ ^
Do you want to know the impressions of the famous "track"?
"L A IL U S IO N D E M I V ID A
"One of the greatest illusions of the Spanish motorcyclist is to know Brookiands.
Well, I have already seen it and I have rolled at 100 miles per hour (about 160 kilometers);
I've been snooping around as much as I can, and I've spent five days saturating myself with
noises and penetrated by the smell of the burned mixture.

......."


Apologies for the long text on this post (...and no pictures!). So Bejarano was invited to go and ride in the 1932 TT by Douglas not a private entrant as I was guessing. He also commissioned the "'31 TT" spec bike for himself and his nickname was possibly "Red".

If I get time I will tidy up the translation.

Cheers

Hutch


[add bold formatting 03Jun21. -Doug, Admin]
« Last Edit: 04 Jun 2021 at 04:22 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #173 on: 04 Jun 2021 at 02:54 »
I knew Williams raced as he is listed in the official results as DNF. But only two starters out of 4 Douglas machines and 5 riders?

C'mon - there are only 172 posts to keep up with! Three Douglases started: Longman finished, Williams and Johnston both dropped out after completing two laps. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg31710#msg31710

It's a pity we don't have a photo showing 4 Douglases at the TT in 1932 - my best guess is that there were four, but I've only ever seen three in the same photo. Surely they had a spare bike.

My understanding of the TT at the time was that an ENTRANT made an entry, specifying a RIDER and a MACHINE. In the case of the 1932 Senior, it seems that Douglas Motors entered three Douglases, specifying Longman, Williams and Johnston as the three riders. (They were listed at the three Douglss riders in the Motor Cycle 2 June.) Reserve riders were probably also nominated, likely Atkins and (maybe) Bejarano.

To start the race, a rider had to qualify by completing a number of practice laps (maybe four or five) on the machine entered (or a very similar one of the same make). This is why Atkins and Bejarano were practicing on the spare machine - with "D" instead of a racing number. This was non-negotiable:no qualify, no start.

Also non-negotiable (sort of - it's complicated) was swapping the make of machine. If a rider qualifies on a Douglas, he can't ride a Norton in the race, and if an entrant enters a Douglas he can't start a Norton in the race.

But, under some circumstances, a RIDER can be changed.

(This all played out in Senior TT in 1930 when mega-star Wal Handley was entered on an FN, which didn't work out, and had to jump through many hoops to get a start on a Rudge. He eventually did this by taking over Jim Whalley's entry on a private Rudge, qualifying on a "spare" Works Rudge, then duly winning the race.)

Thus Atkins and Bejarano were "reserve riders", without an entry in the race. Ready to fill in if needed, although it seems Bejarano probably didn't do enough practice laps to qualify.

Reading the Spanish article, it's clear that Bejarano ended up with one of the 1931 TT Douglases in Spain, as per the photo. (We have  wondered previously whether Babl ended up with another.)

Also the description of Bejarano doing lots of laps at Brooklands at around 100 mph is interesting. I wonder if he was summoned by Douglas to put some miles on the TT bikes prior to the TT? Atkins was testing the engines in his track bike, maybe Bejarano did laps with the complete TT bikes? We know that he actually raced a Douglas at the Motor Cycle meeting at Brooklands in the lead up to the TT. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg32205#msg32205

Anyway, all good stuff. I seriously doubt that Bejarano was ever entered for the TT, but at least he got to throw a leg over a pretty decent bike and have a go.

Leon




Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #174 on: 04 Jun 2021 at 03:58 »
Leon,

Here is the entrants for Douglas (from Western Daily Press 14th May 1932) - no Bejarano listed, but I think he was, as you suggested, a late entrant - possibly as William's was potentially out due to injury. I didn't translate all of the Spanish article previously - as it goes for another page - but this is at the end;

".....
A l final de esta carta, el "rojo” nos expresaba su esperanza
de participar en ei Tourist Trophy de la Isla de Man. Posteriormente.
el telegrafo ha confirmado la noticia.
Bejarano se alineara en la mas famosa carrera de motocicletas
del mundo, formando parte del equipo oficial de una gran
factoria inglesa.
A. F. NAVA

At the end of this letter, the "Red" expressed his hope
to participate in the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy. Subsequently.
the telegraph has confirmed the news.
Bejarano will line up in the most famous motorcycle race
of the world, being part of the official team of a great
English factory.
A. F. NAVA"


Not sure what date Bejarano became officially part of the Douglas team but looks like Douglas had more riders than bikes for the start of the Senior or as you suggest maybe Bejarano didn't end up qualifying and William's recovered enough to race.

cheers

Ian


« Last Edit: 04 Jun 2021 at 04:34 by Hutch »

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #175 on: 04 Jun 2021 at 04:19 »
Leon,

Here is a report for the 1932 Senior TT from the IOM Examiner which has a little bit of information regarding William's and Johnston's demise. Well done to Longman for managing to finish.

Official race record has Paddy Johnston on a Cotton!! that is why I missed him - silly me.

https://www.iomtt.com/tt-database/events/races?meet_code=TT32&race_seq=3

cheers

Ian


Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #176 on: 05 Jun 2021 at 03:53 »
Seems that Bejarano was competing on the 1932 TT Douglas for a few years?. This is from AS Madrid 6th July 1936 possibly at Urquiola (more translations to do). There is at least one more picture of Bejarano and a few race results. I will dig some more info. up when I get a chance.

EDIT: Spanish Civil war started in 1936.

Cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: 05 Jun 2021 at 05:35 by Hutch »

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #177 on: 05 Jun 2021 at 07:10 »
Seems that Bejarano was competing on the 1932 TT Douglas for a few years?

Indeed he did. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5444.msg32299;topicseen#msg32299

Nice to see such a clear photo of the off side of the Bejarano machine. The gear change is still pivoted on its intended lug on the air box, in contrast to the "workshop photo" bike that had a heel-toe lever pivoted on the foot rest. Presumably the Bejarano bike lived and died (or survives) in Spain.

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #178 on: 05 Jun 2021 at 07:43 »
Also of interest is that Bejarano's bike has lost its 8" Enfield front brake. Not sure what its replacement is, but given the cable anchor and cam positions, not Douglas?

Leon

Offline Hutch

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Re: 1932 TT Douglas
« Reply #179 on: 07 Jul 2021 at 00:57 »
Here we have Bejarano on the '32 TT Douglas at Bilboa (which he won) from AS Madrid 28 May 1934.

-Ian

 

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