1932 TT Douglas

[cardan]

Searching for 1932 TT Rudge info, I came across this rather nice illustration of the 1932 TT Douglas motor, from the Motor Cycle of June 23, 1932.

The drawing shows the neat arrangement of the twin carburettors, close coupled to the cylinder heads but still drawing air from a central airbox, in the time-honoured manner dating back to, at least, the 1923 TT bikes (RAs). In fact the main mechanic features of the motor are not too dissimilar to the RA and its progeny - the TT and DT.

Leon

[cardan]

And here's the beast itself. Note the Webb fork and non-cross-over gearbox.

Prior to the race the chances of the Douglas team were summarised thus: "The Douglases are not quite ripe, and their jockeys are not 80 m.p.h. men." These observations were confirmed in the race itself. Cammy Nortons finished 1, 2 and 3 in 1932 Senior T.T., with the Rudges best of the rest.

Leon

[oil baron]

Hi There Leon

Just a few thoughts on the machine,  I wonder what brakes were used as they do not appear to be Douglas, so were they using Enfield or similar proprietary hubs.  The machine does not have a flywheel clutch, and being a non crossover box, I suspect is it using a Sturmey Archer box set up as was fitted to the very similar looking Dr Joe Bailey/Len Cole and later Colin Clifford 750 cc sidecar outfit.  Though that machine seems to use a modified small air box and conventional carb set up rather than that shown in the first picture, the crankcase and sump appears the same. It also appears to use standard 8" Douglas brakes, with the front brake on the left-hand side. otherwise the machine is looks very similar to the one shown in your post, apparently a total of 3 machines were built.

Thanks for the interesting posts Leon

Regards  SteveL

[oil baron]

Hi Leon

Found a better photo of the Dr Joe Bailey/Len Cole/Colin Clifford machine, It uses the same air box as your first photo, but with a conventional carb set up, interestingly the boss at the bottom left-hand side is for mounting the gear change lever.  See the photos on Bonhams Website

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19766/lot/322/

Regards  SteveL

[Doug]

The 1931-32 Douglas works machines allegedly used Douglas brakes, but they were 9". However I have not seen inside one to see if they used the Douglas band brake. The gearbox was a Sturmey-Archer unit explicitly made for Douglas. Initially with an external posi-stop gear change as see in the Bonham auction advert and then in mid 1933 or '34 with an integral posi-stop like used on Norton 'dollshead' 'box and the Norton retrofits in Douglases favored by the vintage sprinters. Examples of these Douglas-Sturmey-Archer gearboxes survive, but were only used on the Works machines and are very rare. Hence folk modifying Norton 'boxes.

The machine in the Bonhams auction is not Joe Bailey's machine (which was a 1926-28 TT model). It is one of the Works sidecar machines. It was assembled and sold at a Bonhams auction a few years back by Collin Clifford. Then in 2012 it was in the sale again. Bailey's machine initially went to his son, who then after a few years sold privately to a Douglas enthusiast.

I know of about three of the 1930-32 Works bikes. The outfit, a solo, and a Works frame built into a sprinter. There was a fourth, the Bury Brothers outfit, but that burned up in the National Motorcycle Museum fire and disappeared. I think I read somewhere that in 1933 they just used the '32 machines and in 1934 the factory had no official involvement, but they did lend the same machines (which at some point received updated gearboxes) to private entries. The engines were described as sounding a bit "flat" by the journalists (I forget which year this was quoted, but I don't think it matters in the results!), and the entries did not gain any merit.

They used a wider angle between the valves than the earlier DT/TT. From what I can tell (an this is still a bit of a learning curve) the 1930 machines had horizontal ports. In 1931 the exhaust ports pointed downward. In 1932 the inlets also pointed downward (or up if going with the flow.) The inclined inlets can be seen in the engine photo Leon posted.

-Doug


[fix typo. 11Aug14  -Doug]

[cardan]

Here's the description of the 1932 TT Douglas from The Motor Cycle in May 1932:

"LAST week the first of the T.T. Douglases was to be seen down at Brooklands. C. T. Atkins, the well-known Douglas exponent, who is largely responsible for the "upbringing " of this model, was putting it through its paces over the half-mile for the first time.

"ALTHOUGH, at first glance, the Douglas resembles the standard 494 c.c. production model, in actual fact it is entirely different. The cooling area of the barrels and cylinder heads has been considerably increased, even down to the extent of finning the rocker standards, which are cast en bloc with the heads. The 14 mm sparking plugs are centrally disposed between the rocker standards, while the inlet ports lead up from the two carburetters at an angle of 20 degrees to the horizontal. The well-known Douglas air-balancing chamber is, of course, incorporated.

"DRY-SUMP lubrication is employed, a large finned aluminium sump being bolted to the bottom of the crank case. A departure from the normal Douglas practice is the fitting of a Sturmey Archer four-speed gear box, the pedal for the positive foot gear change being neatly mounted at the bottom of the air-balancing chamber. With this gear box the final chain transmission is on the near side, where a large chain sprocket is mounted on the drum of an extremely powerful 9in. brake, heavily ribbed, and well protected from wet.

"THE whole engine unit is mounted in a particularly rigid duplex-cradle frame, fitted with a steering head much larger and longer than has hitherto been favoured by the Douglas people. Special Druid forks are used in conjunction with a heavy type and business-like Enfield front brake and hub assembly. The brakes are interconnected and operated by a near-side pedal. Finally, a large, sloping two-section built-up tank, holding four gallons of fuel, is mounted on the lower tank rail.

"A MEMBER of The Motor Cycle staff who was allowed a short trial trip found that the machine possessed immense power and terrific acceleration from low speeds. The gear ratios were very close together, and it was most difficult to appreciate the difference between top and third gears. But the outstanding feature was undoubtedly the steering over a bumpy road. The machine was rock-steady, and gave the impression that it was absolutely light in weight, so easily did it handle. The brakes were superb, being both light and extremely powerful in operation."

A couple of comments. Re the front fork, it looks much more Webb than Druid to me. Until about 1930 Druid were still using twin side springs on some of their forks, but the "go faster" model was the ES (enclosed spring) that looked a bit like the Webb but had an enclosed central spring. Of course the fork could have been changed between testing at Brooklands and racing in the IOM a month later. Re the cooling fins: those cylinder look like OB items to me (OK, the fin shape is OB), and at least some TT heads from about 1926-7 on had finned rocker standards.

Leon

[oil baron]

Hi Leon

I suspect that in the photo you published it also had an Enfield rear hub as well, if you compare the position of the rear brake actuating lever with the photo of the 750cc outfit which uses the 9'' Douglas brake.  On that machine the brake actuating lever operates through the brake anchor point in normal Douglas fashion, whereas the TT machine has a separate actuating arm, and the brake diameter certainly looks smaller than 9",  Interesting!
Keep up the good work

SteveL

[cardan]

Hi Steve,

Yes the rear brake on the 1932 TT bike doesn't look like the Douglas "TT" item (9" brake drum with bolt-on sprocket, usually on the off side of the machine), so given the parlous state of Douglas in the early 1930s it is likely to be a bought-in item. Since the fornt brake is named as Enfield in the Motor Cycle article, the rear could well be Enfield as well.

The restored sidecar works racer is an interesting machine, but keep in mind it is "restored". If you read the Bonham's description carefully, it doesn't promise exact originality anywhere, so there is some scope for fitting parts that are in keeping with a racing Douglas of the period. The problem of reproduction racers has been a huge problem with sorting out the (genuine) 1932 Works Rudge. I've given up looking at photos of restored machines, because most seem to be relatively modern recreations.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Here's the description of the 1932 TT Douglas from The Motor Cycle in May 1932:

"LAST week the first of the T.T. Douglases was to be seen down at Brooklands. C. T. Atkins, the well-known Douglas exponent, who is largely responsible for the "upbringing " of this model, was putting it through its paces over the half-mile for the first time... special Druid forks are used...

I found a photo of Atkins at Brooklands in May 1932. While the powerplant is certainly the 1932 TT job, the cycle parts are pure "outer circuit", with no front brake, dropped bars, and so on.

Indeed the front fork is Druid ES - changed to Webb for the TT.

The Tommy Atkins track Douglas was campaigned at Brooklands and elsewhere, first by Atkins himself and in 1937 by legendary Norton tuner Francis Beart. For most of its outings the bike was fitted with a supercharger above the front cylinder. At Brooklands - fitted with Brooklands "can" silencers - it was notably noisy. For sprints and hillclimbs - with twin megaphones - the noise was close to unbearable.

The 1932 TT-pattern motor - with its upward-angled inlet ports - was used in both normally-aspirated and supercharged versions of the bike. The unusual ports can be seen in the photo of the bike from the front.

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Some pictures of a 1932 TT cylinder head.

There seems to have been a machining error drilling for the rocker spindles!






Here you can see the angulation of the ports to good effect.






Rather than the 'diamond' head gasket groove, a spigot on the cylinder fitted into a recess in the cylinder head.



Here is the cylinder. Note too, the cylider base does not envelope fully the cylinder studs.




Comparison to a DT cylinder head. The included valve angle is greater and so the rocker spindles (and perches) are wider to accommodate. The DT is 82 degrees and the TT is more like 90 degrees.



The perches are also taller. Perspective in this view diminishes the apparent difference in width between the two.




The rocker arms need to be longer, and were entirely different forgings. Again, a comparison to DT rocker arms.










-Doug

[cardan]

Nice one Doug - those parts are obviously quite specific to the 1932 race bikes. Under the funny airbox, was the bottom end of the motor laid out like a DT, or was it "twin cam" like some of the racers in the late 1920s?

Here's a photo from Peter Carrick's Douglas book, where it is captioned "A 1923 TT model being assembled in the Douglas race shop".

Clearly not 1923. The bike is 1932 TT-pattern - as is the motor on the bench - but the mis-matched front and rear rims and the rocking pedal for the gearchange on the frame (rather than the lug for it cast under the airbox) add to the mystery.

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

Regarding the picture from the Peter Carrick book, the airbox does look like it may have the lug for the foot shift pedal. Apparently unused because of the presence of the rocker pedal on the frame. 

The engines were single-cam. The Dixon twin-cam engine appears to have been short lived and in my opinion never stood a chance due to design flaws. I have seen a 1931 engine up close (inlet port horizontal and exhaust pointing downward.) The aluminum crankcases look to have been slightly reinforced versions of the DT type. Other than extra ribbing around the cam bearing boss and whatever was done at the bottom to facilitate the sump, it looks 'standard' DT.

I have also heard that the factory cast the drive side half of the crankcase in bronze to strengthen it. This is plausible, as cracks around the main bearing boss were not unknown. One example has been seen in photos with both the drive and timing side cast in bronze, but otherwise following DT practice. However one has to be careful as there was an individual about twenty five years ago making replacement casings in bronze that developed a reputation for making replica factory race machines that subsequently were passed off as the real thing! So I am not sure if the replicas copied the factory use of bronze, or were used to create the legend of the factory using bronze.

-Doug

[cardan]

Thanks Doug - shall I wait for the racing Douglas book?

Here's Francis Beart at Gatwick in AUgust 1937. Supercharged Douglas + megaphones = spectators in pain!

"Francis Beart - A Single Purpose", another Jeff Clew book, plots the evolution of the Atkins 1932-TT-pattern track bike after Beart acquired it from Comerfords in mid 1937. He ditched the Douglas flywheel clutch and cross-over gearbox for the usual Norton/SA conversion, rebuilt the motor with new atmospheric cams, and rebuilt the supercharger and reconfigured the inlet system. At the end of the year it went bang and he sold it on.

When he bought the bike it came with spare 600 and 750 cc motors, but I don't know if they were also 1932 TT style.

Leon

[cardan]

Here's the missing link between the Tommy Atkins 1932-TT-based outer circuit racer and the Francis Beart version.

The Stilltime Collection has four photos of Tommy Atkins (?) with the bike in supercharged form, but still with the Douglas transmission (flywheel clutch and cross-over gearbox): http://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/search/a/0-0-3-20-0-0-0-3-3-1,2,3,4-0-1-atkins.html

Quite a beast.

Leon

[cardan]

I came across this photo of C. T. Atkins at Brooklands during 1931 in The Motor Cycle 19 Nov 1931. I know nothing about this machine, but given the date I suppose it was based on the 1931 TT bikes: the 1932 TT engines were finished only in the lead up to the TT.

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

I think it is a earlier frame, based on some circumstantial evidence. The following picture shows Atkins on what is basically a 1926-28 I.o.M./TT frame, though having the engine sump that was introduced for 1930 (I believe) on the Works racers. I do not know how long after 1928 (last year in the catalog) one could get these frames, but of course it certainly could be an older frame with some updates. The picture is captioned "1930 TT". If this is the I.o.M. TT, then I have a problem with that. The racing number, refreshingly impromptu, is a little sloppy for a prestigious event. Second, according to the www.iomtt.com site C.T. Atkins only competed in the 1931 Senior TT, with a DNF result. But there were other races titled "TT" and of course the caption might be in error. Third, I think one would want a front brake in the Senior TT!



The primary reason for including this photo is the front fork. If you look closely you can see the brake cable anchorage for the 1926-28 I.o.M./TT models (upper circle) on the far girder, which is distinctive to those models. The lower circle denotes the drum brake lever anchorage.



If you look at the photo you posted, you will see the same style cable anchorage on the front girder. Of course that does not prove it is the same frame (or even just another I.o.M./TT girder), but there is a strong possibility it is the same bike with a bigger fuel tank.

The next picture shows the same bike with the front brake drum fitted. If I am not mistaken, this is at Brooklands and that is the base of the test hill in the background. Brooklands was a favorite haunt of C.T. Atkins and he maintained a workshop/business there; High Efficiency Motors. In the previous photo I think the motorcyclist beyond the spectators in the background strapping on his helmet has his back against the same fence, but it is not entirely clear. 



What is clear is that it is post-race by the grime on Atkins' face!

Then in chronology (probably!), we have the photo you posted in the previous message. Even if not captioned one could have guessed it was taken at the bumpy Brooklands circuit by the fact the machine is fully airborne! I think this shows an interim fuel tank. That the evolved into the 'big' fuel tank shown here:



And here, same picture, different caption. Still prior to the attempt.



The front girders are now braced, but you can still make out the redundant 1926-28 I.o.M./TT brake cable anchorage. Also visible from this side are the induction conduits used on the 1930-31 Works engines. As the carburetors are horizontal, it is not a 1932 engine.

It is hard to say, but this frame could have went on to become the bike Atkins supercharged in 1936, with different fork girders. The supercharged bike lacks details of the 1930-33 Works frames, but the features do not preclude the 1926-28 I.o.M./TT frame.

-Doug


[fix typo. 27Jun20. -Doug]

[cardan]

Hi Doug,

A lot to process here!

The Atkins bike carrying number 3/16 at Brooklands is certainly an "earlier" machine, which makes sense because Douglas didn't enter the TT in 1929 or 1930, so there were likely no works road racers between the unsuccessful twin-cam Dixon machines in 1928 and the 1931 TT bikes. (Dirt Track was booming in 1928 and 1929, and the DT Douglas was more-or-less the only machine to have. In 1930 Dirt Track racing went wild, and suddenly - and probably unexpectedly for Douglas Motors - the DT (and everything else) was completely outclassed by the Rudge and sales must have plummeted. Coupled with the onset of the depression... no wonder the TT wasn't high priority.)

You mention the first Atkins photo is captioned "1930 TT". There were TT Races at Brooklands, on a circuit delineated by tyres, barrels etc., but the bikes used were in "TT trim", meaning they had brakes and mudguards. Atkins doesn't look ready for that! So I'd say he was racing in typical track events, on a machine prepared by himself, but likely using earlier works race parts. More thought needed...

The 1931 Atkins machine I posted has me confused because it seems to have a large triangular tank, reminiscent of the style Rudd used at Brooklands in 1927. Does it sit between the frame tubes like on OC? Or is it a saddle tank that might hide the top bar?

I suppose the 100-miles-in-the-hour bike is the same machine, re-tanked?

Perhaps there are other 1931 Brooklands photos that will explain all?

Fascinating, but puzzling. Perhaps Atkins wrote a memoire?

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

I agree, it does look like a triangular petrol tank going by the hint of a fold line along the top. If on the 1926-28 I.o.M./TT frame (as I think), there really would not be any room to fit it under the top tube. Not in that size and shape. More likely it went over the top tube like a proper saddle tank, or used two 'pannier' tanks with just a trim strip over the top; like the factory was doing on their Works racers 1930-32. Earlier in this post is a picture of Atkins on another 'triangle tank' machine. But that is certainly later as it clearly has the 1932 Works engine and the Druid (?) front forks. But perhaps the earlier triangle tank was resurrected and panel painted?

-Doug

[cardan]

Hi Doug,

Some good points again - perhaps a chronology is falling into place?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there were any Douglas Works road racers for 1930. At least there there were no Douglases entered in the 1930 TT.

The Atkins photos from Brooklands in 1930 show a "late 1920s-style" bike, at least in its main frame, fork and tank design. The engine it also pretty "1920s" - even "pre-1928 Freddie Dixon twin cam" - with the carbs mounted close to the central airbox. I'm not sure about the sump - could it be the 1928 Dixon design? Have to check that.

The Motor Cycling, 11 March 1931, article shows that someone (Douglas? Atkins?) was developing the engine, with the carbs back on the inlet ports (Dixon-style), still horizontal, but with a central airbox.

Now Douglas did enter the TT in 1931, and I'd thought they used the same style engine as on the Atkins machine at Brooklands. However the attached photo (Motorcycle, 11 June 1931) shows a more conventional setup. A photo you'd posted in a thread on ISDT Douglases shows a similar machine with a single-tube loop frame.

Can anyone confirm the spec of the 1931 TT Douglases?

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

I'm not sure about the sump - could it be the 1928 Dixon design? Have to check that.

No, not the Dixon sump. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5122

Leon

[cardan]

Here's one that got away. Third from the left is Bejarano on what looks to be a 1932 TT Douglas, apparently in Spain in the early 1930s.

https://memoriasclubdeportivodebilbao.blogspot.com/2011/11/blog-post.html

The Rudges are both hot stuff, although they may be the over-the-counter TT Replica model rather than genuine Works racers.

The Douglas on the right might be feeling a bit outclassed. No sump is evident, so maybe one of the sports roadsters from the F31/G31 family.

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

No angled exhaust ports on Bejarano' machine, so I think a 1930 or '31. I would say you are right, the machine on the extreme right looks like a F/G31 model, 'tuned-up' by bracing the front forks and removing the exhaust silencer. BUT, the aluminum valve covers of the F/G31 engine ought to be prominently visible on the front cylinder. So they have been removed or 'naked' DT or TT heads have been fitted. Or maybe even the entire engine, on cannot see enough of it to be really sure which model engine it might be.


[Clarification.  10Aug20 -Doug]

[cardan]

Hi Doug,

Higher in the thread you mentioned that works bikes were loaned out to privateers, so maybe a bit of that going on here.

Re the bike on the right: I'm not sure either. Interesting that your scrapbook clipping of the "1931 TT" bike has no sump (forget the loop frame for a moment) so I'm not even sure if no sump rules out works bike. Photos of Douglas racers from the period seem to be in very short supply, not surprising since there were few of them, they were not very competitive, and they didn't get out much.

The reason I went for "1932" for the Bejarano bike is that the frame with the long steering head was supposedly new for the 1932 TT: see the description above "particularly rigid duplex-cradle frame, fitted with a steering head much larger and longer than has hitherto been favoured by the Douglas people." The frame and tank on the Bejanaro bike look quite different to the 1931 TT bike pictured in The Motor Cycle 11 June 1931. (If the Atkins bike with the big triangular tank at Brooklands in March 1931 was new, there was time for the 1931 TT entries to look like this too, but I don't think they did. Perhaps because the company, like everyone else, was broke...)

Re the heads with the angled inlet and exhaust ports: perhaps a comment about what went on with Rudge and their out-of-date works racers. When these were out to Australia the race shop kept a few good bits for spares, notable the cast alloy brake plates and the two-cable handlebar-operated steering dampers, replacing them with lesser parts from production "TT Replicas". If Atkins liked the heads with the angled ports - and I bet there were only a handful ever cast and machined  - it wouldn't surprise me if they were held back for spares when the bikes went off for promotional duties in export markets like Spain.

More questions than answers? Any more 1931-1932 racing Douglas photos out there?

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Longman and Johnston on their Works Douglases at the 1932 Senior TT, from the Keig Collection. Interesting detail of the tanks, but a pity the photo cuts out the all-important engine detail.

Leon

[Hutch]

Leon,

Those big tanks remind me of this picture I found for sale on ebay (I think) quite a while ago. No I didn't buy it - maybe I should have!. I didn't know who was astride the Douglas at the time, then more recently I came across this website when looking into the similarities between Douglas and BMW twin designs in particular the Victoria connection.

http://victoria-rad.de/?p=3366

So I think the person on the Douglas is Toni Babl maybe around 1934?. See Clew's The Best Twin page 241 ed. 2   6/H and 75/F engines.


Edit - so Babl's engines might have been the final racing incarnation of Bailey's RA ?

cheers

Ian

[cardan]

Hi Ian,

Sorry, no ideas at all on that one. The bike on the right is a mid-1920s Triumph Ricardo, so I doubt the photo is as late as 1934, and the Douglas is more super luxury than super sport. A E Reynolds produced specials of this style based on Scotts (for which he was an agent), and this looks to be a similar effort based on an ohv Douglas.

Cheers

Leon

[Hutch]

Yes Leon it could definitely be earlier. than 1934. I re-read the google English translation of the article on Toni Babl and it appears that Nöckl,discovered a fast 750cc Douglas in the UK and that it was maybe purchased around 1931? if I get the timing correct that is ,as a specific date isn't mentioned. In that year Babl appears to be involved with a Victoria KR6 outfit before switching to the Douglas,, but that doesn't of course preclude him having another Douglas earlier. I did not intend to imply that the bike in the picture had anything to do with the engines listed in Clew's The Best Twin going to Toni Babl, only that I thought the person on the Douglas looked like Toni Babl that was all. As usual more research to do!

-Ian

[cardan]

One of the sidecar bikes maybe?

Leon

[cardan]

Here are some specs of the 1931 TT Douglases, from The Motor Cycle magazine in June 1931:

Frames are "almost standard touring ones from stock"

Both engines - junior and senior - are "square" (same bore and stroke)

Valves and springs are longer, with "noticeably different" external cylinder head shape

Lubrication system with two separate "sumps" - the sump scaveneged by the pump is separate from the main supply sump

Separate Amals "bolted close up to the inlet manifolds" with a cautionary note (4 June): "there may not be time to incorporate a very satisfactory air-balancing system which is at present being developed"

3-speed gears with "heel and toe" foot change, pivotting on the right footrest tube

Pannier fuel tanks, bolted together with a cover plate over the join; 3 1/2 gallons. (The caps look like Coventry Movement quick-release as used on many TT bikes of the day.)

Wired-on tyres, 26 x 3.25 rear, 27 x 3 front

I like the comment from early on in the coverage (4 June) even if I don't necessarily believe it: "Originally the Douglas firm had intended to stay out of the T.T., as they did last year, but demand from the riders who wished to enter stirred the spirit, and almost before they realised it they were getting down to the job with a zest which every enthusiast hopes will be rewarded withing the next few weeks."

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

You are getting too far ahead of me! Now I have to catch up.

Interesting that your scrapbook clipping of the "1931 TT" bike has no sump (forget the loop frame for a moment) so I'm not even sure if no sump rules out works bike.

Well HY2863 is captioned as a Junior machine, so as a 350cc could be an entirely different kettle of fish. I think that same variant, with a loop frame, was also used as a Douglas ISDT entrant along with more conventional models. And yet you have HY2878 also as a Junior entrant, in a duplex frame and using the 1930-32 sumps like the Senior mounts. A variety of different frames to attach the Junior entry list, different years (both have tartan tanks, so 1931 or later), or maybe the caption on HY2863 is in error and it was mistakenly identified as Junior entrant/contender.

I do not know the history of the I.o.M. TT in depth, so will have to defer to others about who did or did not race in a given year. I just know the highlights as related in books like "The Best Twin". Nor do I have (unfortunately) any of the Keig albums.

The reason I went for "1932" for the Bejarano bike is that the frame with the long steering head was supposedly new for the 1932 TT:

I have read that too, but I think the 1930-31 models started a trend towards a taller head stock. Of course, now I will have to look to see if I can find any pictures to back that up. The scarcity of images or survivors of a reliable provenance make it difficult.

The Works bike Henry Body has was I though supposed to be a 1930 frame and it has a tall head stock. Yet I am not so sure now as it does have 1932 engine, or at least set of heads. The frame might be '32, '31, and the whole thing could be a mix of years. It does appear to have been built after the change to Sturmey-Archer gearbox as it has the accommodation for a brake drum on the left, not right. But I have reason to believe the frame is not '32 (more anon).

This bike is supposed to be a 1930 Work model. Rear brake drum on the right to suit the cross-over Douglas transmission. The bike was sold to Japan years ago.



There seems to be a bit more gap between the upper and lower head stock lugs the normal, but perhaps that is just an illusion. Built up more at the top too, I think. Though maybe not as tall as the '32 model.

Next we have a picture of what is supposed to be Jack Douglas' Works sidecar bike prior to restoration. It had the transmission from a 1934-35 OW/OW1 road model fitted (poor choice!) but the frame was built for the chain line to be on the left, so would have had the Sturmey-Archer gearbox originally. I think this was supposed to be a 1931 entrant.



And here after restoration. Though note not the same petrol tank as the previous picture.



Then we have the late Bob Jones' sprinter that is supposedly based on a 1932 Work frame. Or so he told me.



With one of the unique feature identifying it as a '32 being the special lower rear lug to have a cross over brake shaft.



Presumably passing the shaft through the lower frame tube was out, as that was needed for the sidecar mounting. It also has the high foot rest mounting position seen on the Works bikes. But there are problems. The frame has the provision for the brake drum on the right. If it was a 1932 frame, it would have had a Sturmey-Archer gearbox, chain line on the left, and no need for a brake drum on the right. Unless they wanted to separate the brake drum and the sprocket for some reason. The bike as shown is set up for a sprocket/brake drum on the right (it is an earlier, and rare, 1926-28 I.o.M./TT brake drum), but the anchorage appears to be an addition rather than using the Douglas axle lug with the built-in brake anchorage. The other problem is the use of the DT type transmission platform. All the other 1930-32 Works have the platform projecting straight forward, rather than sweeping down. So I have my doubts. Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind twenty-three years ago to look for a frame number when I took the photos.



It does have a tall head stock, but it is possible this and the other features are well engineered modification to a DT frame done long ago and having over time acquired the story (and a pannier petrol tank) of being a Works frame. 

-Doug

[cardan]

Here's Tommy Atkins fettling his Senior entry No. 32 prior to the TT. Note the orthodox location of the carburettors adjacent to the airbox - looks likely that the carb-on-head config didn't make it to the 1931 TT.

The registration seems to be HY2878; if so, and Douglas were not sharing license plates, the photo of HY2878 I posted earlier is incorrectly captioned as a Junior model, instead being the Atkins Senior entry. Maybe the Junior bikes (I think there may have been only two) did have a loop frame and no sump...

Leon

[cardan]

Oh dear, this is serious. Posting the same conspiracy theories (different Junior and Senior bikes in 1931) at the same time...

Leon

[cardan]

Thanks for posting the "survivor" pics Doug.

I do like the "1930 Works Douglas". Although it's impossible to say too much from just a photo, I'd say that this bike has all the hallmarks of one of the Douglases as used in the 1931 Senior TT. It would be fun to inspect in detail. Any more photos of this bike? History? Engine and frame numbers would be interesting given some unusual prefixes listed in Clew.

Still looking for pics of the two 1931 Junior TT entries, ridden by Antice and (New Zealander) Bray. A photo during the race would be a rare thing as neither made it to the end of the first lap!

For the moment, I'm sticking with "There were no Works Douglas road racers in 1930", but happy to be proved wrong.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

I like the Bob Jones sprinter too, but I don't think the frame has anything to do with the 1931 or 1932 TT bikes. Doug makes some good points about the "DT-like" features of the frame; I'd add that the angle at which the top frame rail meets the steering head is quite unlike the 1932 TT frame on the bench posted higher up in the thread, but quite DT-like.

The 1931 TT bikes used the un-DT-like flat gearbox mount that Doug mentions. Here's the 1931 TT gearbox platform arrangement.

Leon

[cardan]

Finally the sidecar bike. I confess ignorance on this one.

There was no sidecar TT in the early 1930s, so what was the purpose of this machine? Brooklands I guess? Was it manufactured as a sidecar bike, or "upsized" from a 1932 TT bike?

Or could it be the bike that Tommy Atkins was campaigning at Brooklands from March 1931?

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

According to an article by Bob Currie in the June 1988 issue of The Classic Motorcycle on the Bury Brothers outfit, three sidecar outfits were built c1933 for "... the sidecar TT, the revival of which mooted at the time (it never did take place...) " These were built up from 'engines that had been laying around the Works'. It is not said if the frames were laying about too, or made for the purpose. One became the Bury Brothers outfit, one was the outfit Collin Clifford sold at Bonhams 2007 Stafford sale (see prior pic), and a third had belonged to Jack Douglas. The auction catalog stated they 'believed' their machine was the Jack Douglas bike... It sold for 26k sterling, so someone else believed it too.

Anyway, the problem is that I would have thought it a lot of trouble to go to without a firm commitment that the sidecar race would be definitely be held. Also, 1933 was a very bad year for Douglas, with hardly any production to speak of and presumably money extremely tight. Spending money on a racing project, even if recycling components from prior years, does not seem likely. Lack of money is after all why 1932 was the last year for official Works entries in the Senior. But who knows what they were actually able to pull out of the hat. There must have been some money as they did lend the bikes out to private individuals. Also, they came back in 1934 with a full range of models; and that development must have occurred in 1933. Some all new like the Bantam, or with major engine updates to the big side valve and ohv models. So there must have been some money available.

-Doug


[fix typos. 04Jul20  -Doug]

[cardan]

Thanks for that Doug - an excellent article as was the norm from Bob Currie. Very believable too, because Currie probably knew all of the people involved. Fair to say that the Bury brothers' bike is a ripper because of the provenance; other survivors might vary but the "No 34" bike looks pretty good too. I had assumed these two were the same bike!

I think we could safely call all of these long-steering-head pannier-tank bikes "1932 Works", even if Atkins using was a similar frame at Brooklands during 1931, and if some frames were specially built for sidecar racing after 1932. Three bikes were entered in the 1932 Senior TT (Johnston No.11, Longman No. 25, and Williams No. 30) so presumably there would have been at least half a dozen frames and engines (Bury brothers' engine number 7-E1 suggests 7 or more?) built originally. In 1932 the TT bikes were massively outclassed as solos, so using excess parts for clubmen's sidecar racing machines in larger capacities made sense: at least the product could be seen and competitive.

I see Douglas listed a racing sidecar in the 1931 catalogue, specifically said to be for SW5/SW6. Presumably this is the sidecar we see on the surviving 1932 Works bikes that ended up doing service in sidecar racing. One of these sidecar chassis has turned up recently in Australia, but I don't know whether or how the racing chassis differed from the other sidecars on offer.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

In the 1932 Senior, Longman finished 15th, Johnston and Williams both retired after 2 laps. Longman's average speed was 68.99 mph, compared with Stanley Woods' winning 79.38 mph.

Leon

[Doug]

Fair to say that the Bury brothers' bike is a ripper...

Was a ripper; more like RIP. It was destroyed in the 2003 fire at the National Motorcycle Museum, Solihull, UK.

-Doug

[roger h]

Doug,
Re the survivors - I had a good look at (and sat on )  a 1932 TT bike about 30 years ago, when owned by a friend in the Bristol area. He has since died and the bikes' present whereabouts unknown.
There was a racing Douglas sold by a dealer up here about 10 years ago, which was claimed to be the ex Francis Beart supercharged bike, the only difference from a DT/SW I could see was the very large saddle tank. Don't know where it is now.
Wandering off thread - regarding the earlier TT model gear ratios - one of the buyers of the new gears we are making has access to "an original TT model", and has passed on the internal ratios, as 2.4:1, 1.55:1 and 1:1. he doesn't know the gear teeth numbers, as the box is not likely to be dismantled. These ratios compare to the 2.16:1, 1.56:1 and 1:1 ratios provided by the gears you made and which we are also now producing. So do you think we finally know what the TT ratios were?
Another super thread, thanks everyone.
Roger

[cardan]

Roger, the ratios you mention are the "TG" set, as fitted standard to the OC in 1927. Pretty wide ratio for a TT, but I'm sure Douglas would supply if asked. A summary of ratios is here: https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7809.msg30271#msg30271

Here are a couple of photos of C J Williams (riding number 3) with his 1932 TT Douglas road racing at the Senior Grand Prix at Brooklands, 23 July 1932, the month after the TT. As mentioned earlier, bikes in these "road races" at Brooklands were in TT trim with brakes, Brooklands-spec silencers and mudguards. Photos from Bert Perryman's "A Clubman at Brooklands".

Leon

[roger h]

Leon,
Thanks for this, I hadn't realised that you had done a summary of the gearbox ratios, its very helpful. So we still don't know the teeth numbers on a UG box!?
Roger

[cardan]

Photos of Atkins and Palmer in the 1931 Senior (500cc) TT, from The Motor Cycle 25 June 1931.

The unanswered question remains the spec of the 1931 Junior TT bikes: sump/no sump, single/double cradle frame.

Leon

[cardan]

I can give a positive id to Doug's "1930 TT" photo of Tommy Atkins on Douglas No. 3.

It was taken at the BMCRC meeting at Brooklands on Saturday 11 October 1930, and the bike was Atkins' own 596 Douglas. On it he won the first heat for the Wakefield Cup (at 95.09 mph), just beating home the eventual winner of the final Bill Lacey on his 586 Norton (at 106.19 mph, with his final lap at 110.92 mph). Handicap race, of course. Atkins lost his clutch in the final.

At the same meet Atkins also won the Phillips Cup Race, for "private owners", at 96.52 mph.

The Motor Cycle report (which contained a clipped version of Doug's photo) noted that Atkins' bike was the same one on which he finished second in the 200 Mile Race (Doug's other Atkins photo, No 16). This event was held two weeks earlier, and of the 10-or-so starters in the 1000cc race, only Atkins and one other were "non-trade members", or in BMCRC parlance "private owners". Atkins had a couple of unscheduled stops, but outlasted many of the faster bikes to finish second at 89.4 mph.

These races were at the end of the 1930 season at Brooklands, and the last outings for Atkins on his "vintage" Douglas.

Leon

[cardan]

Atkins was awarded a "Gold Star" for a 100mph lap of Brooklands in the 750cc class during 1930. I can't find the exact date, nor confirmation that he was riding his 596 Douglas in the previous post, although this seems highly likely. Someone probably knows the details...

There were a number of fast track/sprint Douglases like the 1930 Atkins bike, in 500, 600 and 750 sizes and based (more or less) in the production 1926-28 IOM TT Model. G D Brown, for example, competed at Brooklands during 1930 on his well-known machine https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=885 , on at least one occasion in the same race as Atkins, so they were certainly different bikes. Brown seems to have been less successful than Atkins?

Regarding "vintage" survivors, it would take a braver person than me to link these directly to the racing bikes of the day. The Bayley/Cole bike is sometimes linked to Atkins (presumably his 1930 bike). The "nickel plate frame" bike in Whitewebbs Museum of Transport in Enfield is linked to the Dobson brothers - one web post is quite definitive: "1928 Douglas 750cc Brooklands Special. Built by Rex Judd for the Dobson Brothers. The machine gained a gold medal for lapping Brooklands at over 100 mph. It came back into Rex Judd's hands through Mike Hawthorn's father's garage at Brooklands in the early 1950s and was rebuilt by Judd's staff." Sounds good, but Arthur Dobson didn't get his Gold Star until 1933, by which time the bike was a bit long in the tooth to have been built for him by Judd.  Time-line-wise, the Dobson bike could easily be the 1930 Atkins bike, since (as we shall see) Atkins had a new Douglas that he campaigned through 1931. The old one - the personal property of Atkins if The Motor Cycle is to be believed - must have gone somewhere...

Anyway these vintage speed Douglases were close to IOM TT spec, while Judd's ultimate Brooklands Douglas for 1927 used a different frame with a straight top bar and a triangular tank. According to Bayley, Judd's 1927 bike was the only 500 Douglas to lap Brooklands at 100+ mph in the vintage years. Atkins' 596 lapped at 100+ in 1930. I'm beginning to think that Atkins' 1931 machine owed something to Judd's 1927 Brooklands racer: perhaps the same frame, or a new frame with the Judd geometry.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Yes Leon it could definitely be earlier. than 1934. I re-read the google English translation of the article on Toni Babl and it appears that Nöckl,discovered a fast 750cc Douglas in the UK and that it was maybe purchased around 1931? if I get the timing correct that is ,as a specific date isn't mentioned. In that year Babl appears to be involved with a Victoria KR6 outfit before switching to the Douglas,, but that doesn't of course preclude him having another Douglas earlier. I did not intend to imply that the bike in the picture had anything to do with the engines listed in Clew's The Best Twin going to Toni Babl, only that I thought the person on the Douglas looked like Toni Babl that was all. As usual more research to do!

Hi Ian,

Indeed Toni Babl had a number of racing Douglases. Here's a photo (from the Technical Museum of Vienna) showing him on an outfit with a reasonably unimpressive petrol tank - maybe 1931 or so. Clearly not the twin-headlight deep-tank bike in your original photo; perhaps the UK 750 you refer to. Despite Babl not making it to the index of the Best Twin, Clew lists frame AND engine prefixes from two machines built for Babl, around late 1934 or early 1935. Frame prefix FS was a "special 750cc racing model for Toni Babl, Germany", FT was "special 750cc racing model for Toni Babl, Germany" (followed by FU, built for CTA, probably for the supercharged racer). The engines for the Babl bikes were 6/H (600cc) and 75/F (750cc), same sort of date.

So most likely the later Babl bikes (the twin headlight bike?) were built new at Douglas (?) and were not the 1932 TT bikes upsized. Why is a mid-30s bike in a photo with a mid-20s Triumph Ricardo. Just weird.

For a broke company, Douglas messed around with some very small projects!

The list of engine numbers in Clew is fascinating. Tempting to think that the engine number on the Bury Bros bike was 7/F 1 (rather than 7.E 1 in the Classic Motor Cycle article), as this would tie the Babl bike to the Bury bike (which debuted in May 1935) rather nicely. Ireckon if they stamped 5/ on the 500s, 6/ on the 600s, 7/ could be a lazy stamping of 75/

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

A long way back up this thread, Doug's pic of Tommy Atkins from Motor Cycling 11 March 1931 shows him on "his new Douglas which he will race at Brooklands during the coming season". In the photo the bike is wearing a monster tank, for a (non-stop) 1 hour record attempt. Nothing came of the record attempt, but there were notable outings during the year including a Gold Star for a 100mph lap as a 494 in the 500cc class (Atkins already had one with his 1930 596 bike, in the 750 class), and a win in the Holliday Cup in July.

The attached photo shows Atkins and his 494 Douglas with Bill Lacey on his 588 Norton. This photo is usually captioned with the riders' names and "1931", but it very likely shows Lacey and Atkins after the Holliday Cup. The riders look happy! It was a 19 lap race, with a small field made smaller by retirements. With 5 laps to go Lacey was down by 3/4 lap but was closing so rapidly that the final margin was 1 second! Atkins had 3 minutes 10 seconds on handicap, so it's no wonder both look like winners.

in this photo a few things are evident: Atkins' 1931 frame was very "Judd like" and could fit a tank inside the frame (so no 1932-style brace between the tank and top rails of the frame), it has Douglas fork and "short" but high steering head, and (through Lacey's spokes) the carburettors were bolted directly to the inlet port.

The bike was used as both 494 and 596cc during 1931. In reports Atkins was no longer singled out as a "private owner", so he was likely in some arrangement with Douglas

Leon

[cardan]

Here's the description of the 1932 TT Douglas from The Motor Cycle in May 1932:
"LAST week the first of the T.T. Douglases was to be seen down at Brooklands. C. T. Atkins, the well-known Douglas exponent, who is largely responsible for the "upbringing " of this model, was putting it through its paces over the half-mile for the first time.
... Special Druid forks are used...

In the photo above, it's not hard to imagine Tommy glancing enviously at the solid steering head and Druid ES fork on Bill Lacey's Norton and thinking "I could do worse that have a front end like that..." And, for 1932, he did.

I'm now convinced that any Douglas racer with a long steering head, Druid or Webb fork, and Sturmey Archer non-cross-over gearbox was born no earlier than 1932.

Atkins' 1931 track bike owes a lot to Judd's 1927 track bike, with the carburettors bolted directly to the inlet ports harking back to Dixon's 1928 2-cam TT bike, listed in the 1929 catalogue as the TT Model. It was the design for the 1932 racing bikes - Atkins at Brooklands, and a Works teams in the Senior TT - that had the real innovation. Clew's engine and frame number tables suggest bikes of this "1932 TT" pattern were built for special customers (like Babl in Germany, maybe Bejarano in Spain, Atkins and the Bury brothers at home) beyond 1932, perhaps as late as 1935.

Here's a photo - from the stilltime archive - of a race at Brooklands showing TWO of the 1932 TT bikes in action. Almost certainly the same event (Brooklands Senior GP, July 1932) shown in the Perryman photos above. Students of Brooklands might be interested in the track layout. The event used the short Mountain Circuit, in the clockwise direction, which involved a hairpin bend at The Fork, from the the exit of the Members' Banking onto the Finishing Straight. The Perryman photos are taken at The Fork: the first from the outside of the corner, the second from the inside. Look at the first photo, and in the distance, beyond the Vickers building but before the Members' Banking, you can see a barrel in the middle of the track.

In this photo, you can see that the race started on the outside of the track, ran alongside the Vickers shed, then did a U-turn around the barrel in the middle of the track onto the Mountain Circuit proper. The barrel is partly obscured behind the second Douglas rider. I haven't seen a barrel in the middle of a race track for a while.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

There are more mentions of Jack Douglas in this thread than there are in the pages of "The Best Twin"!

Doug posts an older photo of an interesting bike with an unusual fuel tank "supposed to be Jack Douglas' Works sidecar bike prior to restoration", and another of it after restoration. But is this the same bike? How did it grow an extra frame lug on the lower right chainstay, adjacent to the rear wheel rim? Could it be a different bike Doug?

When the "ex Colin Clifford bike" (No. 34) sold at Bonhams (a couple of times, e.g. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15321/lot/366/ ) it was described as "1931/32", "believed to be one of just three examples of this ‘Works’ model built", and "thought to be Jack Douglas’s own machine".

Bob Currie's June 1988 article about the Bury Bros 750 racer also goes with the "three bikes" story. In addition to the Bury brothers bike, "... a sister 746cc Douglas is currently owned by Colin Clifford, and Jack Douglas at one time held the Brooklands Mountain Circuit record on a third one."

Anyway, I'm pretty sure than none of these bikes pre-dates 1932, and there's good evidence for a 1934-ish date for the Bury Bros bike. Yes the Bury boys were racing a Douglas outfit in 1931, but not the one under discussion.

And Jack Douglas was riding on the Mountain Circuit at Brooklands in 1931, but I'm prepared to bet is wasn't on "No 34", but an earlier machine. In April 1931, for example, Jack Douglas won the 10 Lap Mountain Passenger Handicap at Brooklands, riding a 744cc Douglas outfit. The Motor Cycle was impressed and noted that "his big engine (was) positively crammed with horses", and reported that when the power came on after the hairpin at the fork (see photos above) the outfit "squirmed like an eel". Nice!

So, any photos of Jack Douglas racing a Douglas outfit in the 1930s? None found yet. Help please.

Leon

[cardan]

I didn't want to muddy the waters in the previous post, but here's another Jack Douglas reference. Motor Sport magazine, December 1969, contained the following request for information:

"Information is sought by a reader about the Douglas sidecar outfit which was built for the abandoned 1934 Sidecar TT and later raced at Brooklands by Jack Douglas. It has a Swill-built Dixon banking sidecar and a 596-c.c. o.h.v. engine, No. 10, the frame number being OF 218. The outfit may have held the 750-c.c. class Mountain lap record. Letters can be forwarded."

I see OF 218 (a 1926-28 IOM TT frame number) is in the Register of machines, now fitted with a DT motor. Ignoring the speculation about the 1934 Sidecar TT, frames like this were used at Brooklands (by Atkins in 1930, for example), and could have been used by Jack Douglas on the Moutain Circuit in 1931.

Leon