Author Topic: Identification  (Read 7352 times)

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Offline McKaige

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Identification
« on: 24 Jul 2012 at 03:58 »
Greetings,
I have just acquired another 350cc Douglas and I would like some clarification as to what it is exactly.
The engine is of the TS type the cam case dated 1925.
The frame number is well coated with paint and hard to read. the gearbox carries  letter A below which is stamped  OG17687. Engine number 86188.
It is fitted with clutch and kick-starter and is belt driven. Gearbox is 2 speed.

Now on my 1925 TS the gear lever quadrant is smaller and has a plate High Free Low. I always thought this was common to two speed boxes. The new bike has a much longer quadrant with no markings.

Also would a bike fitted with clutch and kick starter still be fitted with decompression lever?
Have I got a SW25 or a CW 25? Apart from the clutch and the kick starter and the quadrant, it is identical to my TS.
I have the remains of another 350 bike that I was told was a CW. It has all chain drive with brake rims on front and rear wheels and totally different hubs. Engine remains the same. Needs a number of parts to get it back into life.

Hope someone out there can set me staright
Cheers
Chester
   

Offline Chris

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Re: Identification
« Reply #1 on: 24 Jul 2012 at 07:37 »
Hi Chester
  The engine No 81688 puts it firmly in to late 1925/26 when only the CW was being made. The gearbox OG 17687 is the designation of a three speed gearbox also of 1925 used on the CW model, not a two speed gearbox. The longer quadrant on the frame for the gearchange also indicates that this was either a modified CW frame or an earlier three speed 2.3/4hp frame. All models have a valve lifter/decompressor whether or not they have kickstart mechanism or clutch. If your machine has a stirrup front front brake and no redundant bosses for the pivoting brake mechanism from a dummy belt rim brake then you probably have TS or earlier 2/3/4hp front forks. The rear fork arrangements are different between the earlier 2.3/4 belt drive machines and the later chain drive CW model. The CW has the dummy belt rim brake on the left hand side whereas the belt drive machines have a wedge brake on the right hand side utilising the actual belt rim. It looks as though the machine you have is a "bitsa" comprising an early frame or modified CW frame together with CW engine and gearbox.
Chris.

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #2 on: 24 Jul 2012 at 08:31 »
Chris,
Thanks for that. I'll scape the paint off and try and get a frame number.
Chester

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #3 on: 24 Jul 2012 at 08:46 »
Chris,
The number is C7146.
The front forks are the same as my TS with the facility to take horse shoe brake.
Chester

Offline Chris

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Re: Identification
« Reply #4 on: 24 Jul 2012 at 09:37 »
Hi Chester
    How sure are you that the frame number is C7146? The early frames for 2.3/4hp machines right through to the 1925 TS models all had no letter prefix. The only 2.3/4p machine to have a prefix to the frame number is the CW model 1924 to 1926 which has the frame identity starting CF and with all but the last few having only four digits to follow. What often confuses apart from rust and paint is that there is often the Douglas trademark also stamped beside the frame number which is a capital letter D with the letter k inside the D. This can be mistaken for a variety of digits/letters. If your letter C was mistaken for this then your frame number of only 7146 would put the frame as early as 1913 which is very unlikely and would be easily identified as such by many other features such as where the rear stand pivots on the rear fork and the shape of the frame lugs and in any case it would be, not impossible, but difficult to marry up the later TS forks which required a larger diameter steering head. There were three speed models as early as the late teens and various top of the range models in the early twenties but I cannot reconcile that frame number with any of these even with liberal guessing of incorrect reading of the number. If you can post some photos of the frame it might help in identification.
Chris.

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #5 on: 24 Jul 2012 at 22:27 »
Hi Chris, my bike was the last one made with the worn number stamps!!! Either that or its a job for the visually challenged! Anyway, I have done the deed and the number is 87149.
Over the weekend, i'll line up all 3 bikes and take some pics.
Cheers
Chester

Offline Chris

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Re: Identification
« Reply #6 on: 25 Jul 2012 at 08:01 »
Hi Chester
   I know you were joking but in fact with the frame number 87149 you would appear to have the latest frame number recorded for a TS. So assuming that it is now correct, at the end of the day it looks although you have CW components built into a TS frame that has been modified to accept the gear change for a three speed gearbox. The alternative is that it is a modified CW frame that has had the frame number changed. Photos may help clarify. Incidentally what sort of wheels do you have? The CW had "C" section rims while the TS and all other 2.3/4hp models had Westwood section rims. The hubs were different as well as the CW with chain drive had hubs with the tapered spines to locate the sprocket at the rear but they were made so that the wheels were interchangeable so had identical hubs front and rear.
Chris.

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 02:47 »
Greetings Chris,
This is the bike in question.
I will send you pics of the one on the other side
Chester









« Last Edit: 11 Aug 2012 at 23:11 by Dave »

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 02:57 »
Chris,
Bike no 2, the restoration project
C









« Last Edit: 11 Aug 2012 at 23:13 by Dave »

Offline eddie

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Re: Identification
« Reply #9 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 06:44 »
Hi Chester,
                Your frame number looks more like 67149 to me - in which case, your bike is already listed in the LDMCC machine register, with the owner being in Romsey, Victoria, Australia.

    Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline Chris

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Re: Identification
« Reply #10 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 08:25 »
Hi Chester
     Eddie is correct that it does look like the frame number is 67419 which is listed in the Club Machine Register, however, the model is listed in the register as a TS from 1925 which did not have a three speed gearbox and would have had a simple low/free/high gear change quadrant on the top frame tube. What is also suspicious is that the frame numbers in the 60,000 range are almost all of 1923 or 1924 origin. Your engine and gearbox look like ex CW from their appearance and numbers. The front forks are definitely TS. Looking again at the frame number, the digits are of different sizes and I suspect that it is an earlier frame from a 2.3/4hp three speed model that has been restamped. If it is indeed the machine recorded in the register, it simply means that we have the details supplied by a previous owner.
   The second machine shown is definitely CW with the "C" section rims, larger section mudguards, front forks with the boss for mounting the dummy belt rim brake and no provision for the top cross member for a stirrup brake,  the frame with mounting for the dummy belt rim brake on the left hand side of the rear fork, drive sprocket on rear wheel, which incidentally is in the frame the wrong way round. Looks like a nice complete basis for an easy restoration. Chris.

Offline Alan Cun

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Re: Identification
« Reply #11 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 09:41 »
Yes Chester,

I would not be concerned about the 3 speed box from a CW as I have been approached by many over the  years to supply this box. If you look through past postings you will find a story I did years ago 60 plus MPH on a 2 3/4. This was the first mod my mate did on that bike. I think I may have mentioned it before that this box can be used as a preselect unit. Simply by maintaining the throttle setting on approaching an intersection or corner you push the lever back a gear and it will remain in the higher gear until you back off the throttle or pull the valve lifter. Many TS were still available for sale in 26 even though the EW was released. I have come across valve covers with the 25 over stamped 26. A Toowoomba M/C dealer also sold Dougs with an extra transfer on the tank Downs Motor Cycles.

I believe the bikes came to Aust in smaller pieces and on assembly a dealer had no hesitation in tarting them up to attract a buyer.

regards Alan

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #12 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 10:58 »
Hi Alan, Chris and Eddie,
Thanks for your wise comments. Yes indeed the bike came from Romsey here in Victoria.
Ok, so its a TS bitsa with a smattering of CW components. That's fine by me. The only thing missing is a decompression lever. Why are these things so hard to come by? The plan is to keep it basically as is with a slight degree of cosmetic surgery.

The CW looks better in the pics than in the flesh. It needs a lot of work. The wheel is indeed back to front for the strange reason that its easier to push around. Tends to grab when in correct position. One day I'll get around to doing something with it although I could be tempted to see it go to a good home.

The other TS in the picture I have owned for 28 years. It came out of a gold mine shaft in central Victoria so the story goes.
Anyway, thanks again for all your input.
Chester

Offline David Lawrence

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Re: Identification
« Reply #13 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 11:36 »
Hi Chester,
It would seem that our knowledgable scribes have pinned down your ID problems, however may I make a plea for you to let Len Boydell our Club registrar have details of the three bikes so that we can update our records, I note that the CW is not shown in the last publication, if it has been added recently I apologise for troubling you. It would be helpful if you could check the engine number again of the "TS bitsa!!" also it is very useful information to include the gearbox numbers, sadly in the early days these were not seen to be of importance but time has shown that this info can be invaluable for identifying models, modifications etc.
email address for Len is douglasregistrar@talktalk.net
As has been mentioned the Club has decided that to protect members anonymity we no longer publish identifyable personal data, however we are prepared to share information provided that we obtain written permission of the owner, also we would NEVER publish this information other than in private correspondence.
Dave

Offline McKaige

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Re: Identification
« Reply #14 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 12:11 »
Consider it done. The CW apart from coming I assume from South Australia (no.plate) has no previous history that I'm aware. Over the weekend I'll do the homework and provide a list of numbers.
C

Offline cardan

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Re: Identification
« Reply #15 on: 26 Jul 2012 at 14:01 »
The attached advert is from a Queensland newspaper (the Worker) in May 1926. You could get a new TS, SW or CW; no mention of the EW. Perhaps Alan is right and some enterprising Douglas dealer would deliver a "3 speed SW".
About 20 years ago I was approached by a man at a petrol station while filling my veteran bike with petrol. He told me his father worked for Gard Bros. (the Douglas agents in Adelaide), and his first job there was removing the front stirrup brakes from Douglases and throwing them away! Clearly dealers didn't feel obliged to adhere strictly to the Douglas specs.

Cheers

Leon



« Last Edit: 11 Aug 2012 at 23:18 by Dave »