Author Topic: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch  (Read 11749 times)

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Offline Mikerobe

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Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« on: 17 Nov 2009 at 22:59 »
Hi Mike
   I presume you are discussing the qty 8 screws securing the back plate to the flywheel body. I have found that the only way of getting these out reliably is to use an impact screwdriver. Give them a good soak in WD40 or similar, ensure the slots are clear and then with the impact driver a good bash with at least a 2lb hammer will usually release them. A recent auto jumble purchase of one of these flywheels was so rusty that I could not even see the screws. Wire brushing, a soak in release oil, use of an old screwdriver as a chisel to clean out the residual screw slots and then a good bashing session and I removed all 8. Chris.

Yeah those screws. I used an impact driver and got through four bits on the remaining 4 screws. I ran out for now until I can source some more. Maybe I wasnt using a big enough hammer. I'll leave it to marinate in WD40 for a bit longer and get some more impact driver bits and give it another go. Mind you the slots are starting to give way on one or two of the heads unfortunately.

Mike 8-{>

Offline Doug

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #1 on: 18 Nov 2009 at 01:00 »
Mike,

And if they are still stuck, you can weld a small nut to the head of the screw. The better purchase, shrinking of the conical head, and heat from welding allow the screw to be backed out easily. In this instance the welding was by TIG torch.



-Doug



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Offline Mikerobe

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #2 on: 19 Nov 2009 at 00:31 »
Thanks for the tip Doug :D Fortunately another couple or 3 days soaking and taking Chris' advice to up the welly factor of the hammer on the impact driver and a spot of regrinding a screwdriver bit got the last four screws out this evening. Some more soaking in WD40 and more gentle tapping released the plate from the back of the flywheel and the innerds were revealed at last.

Things dont seem to be in too bad nick although I think the roller bearings are shot as probably are the bearing surfaces. This is not helped by a previous owner who has welded the sprocket to the plate.





I am assuming that this is where the two parts would originally have been riveted together. The welding has heated up the bore of the sprocket sleeve and has also added weld burrs to the end of the collar. These made it rather hard to separate the two halves of the roller bearings.  This would seem to have been done at some point while the whole lot was assembled.

There are other photos of todays progress here http://www.mikerobe.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=68&page=2 I seem to be suffering a "feature" in my gallery software which delights in taking random images and rearranging them, sliding puzzle style,  despite all my attempts to prevent this. Apologies for the images this happens to.

Mike 8-{>


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Offline Mikerobe

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #3 on: 26 Nov 2009 at 08:30 »
......
Things dont seem to be in too bad nick although I think the roller bearings are shot as probably are the bearing surfaces. This is not helped by a previous owner who has welded the sprocket to the plate........

I was wondering if folks could please take a look at the following and offer any help / advice they might have on how to address the next steps on this. While I know a bit about engineering and a bit about motorcycles this is my first foray in to restoring a vintage motorcycle and I am wary of going about things in the wrong way or making larger problems for later on by missing out important things early on.

I am now at the point where I need to figure out what is the best course of action to repair / restore / reassemble the clutch. With the sprocket and clutch plate welded together where they were once riveted I am not sure what to do.  The weld has melted in to the inner bore making it difficult to take apart and probably more difficult to re assemble.  I imagine the simplest thing to do is to try and tidy up the bore to remove the intrusions in to the ID from the weld . Another option might be to try and remove all the weld mess and then try to rebuild a new tabbed centre in to the clutch plate and new castleations on to the sprocket .. or just get the whole sprocket centre redone? This would be a fair bit of work but might be better in the long run?

Next question is how best to deal with the roller bearings? Are the rollers themselves easy to replace i.e. a standard size? I am not sure that I would trust measuring th examples I have to source replacements. I gather that it is feasible to get bearing surfaces rebuilt and reground. The bearing as it stands was very sloppy so needs to have something done.

Last of all on the clutch bearings... as Doug pointed out I have an "interesting" thrust bearing and no idea of what should be there or if I have any parts missing. It isnt too clear from the sectioned drawing in the EW handbook what sjhould go there.  Does anyone have any pictures of the parts of the thrust bearing assembly I could look at to see exactly what I may or may not be missing?

Any and all advice greatfully recieved.

Cheers Mike 8-{>

Offline Chris

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #4 on: 26 Nov 2009 at 10:25 »
Hi Mike
      The original thrust bearing is a brass disk with ball bearings held captive in holes by ring staking each side. A more popular solution adopted by many in the last few years has been substitution of a prelubricated sintered metal disc. These are available under the name "Oilite". In machining the disc to size it is essential that the cutting tool is very sharp to avoid smearing over and closing the interstices between the sintered metal particles that retain the lubricant.
    With regard to your sprocket/driven plate problem it might be worth advertising for a good second hand example as it is unlikely that you are going to be able to save the mess you have at present to anything like the original. These items are around and I mentioned my recent autojumble purchase that was so rusty that I could not even see the screw heads retaining the back plate. Well this turned out after stripping to be remarkably good with a virtually unworn sprocket and good internals. This was the CW version which has the linings riveted separately to the front plate and the backplate unlike the EW version which has the linings riveted back to back on the driven plate. I am currently getting the friction linings renewed. (The lining on the back plate had been replaced by 15 separate pieces of material each held by a bifurcated paper rivet instead of a disk of friction material with the correct hollow rivets. It is amazing the bodges that people get up to.)
    If you are unable to find a replacement assembly. You stand a good chance of separating the existing by sacrificing the actual disc. You may then be able to clean up and restore the sprocket. I have remade the disc in the past by simply spinning sheet steel in the lathe over a wooden former, This can then be drilled to take the linings and for rivetting to the sprocket. The rivets are 3/32" diameter and can be obtained from good model engineering shops in a suitable length.
Chris

Offline roy

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #5 on: 26 Nov 2009 at 10:54 »
Mike, if you insert Clutch Setup 1926 EW in the search box, there are some photos and very good instructions that may be of help to you.
Roy.

Offline Mikerobe

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #6 on: 26 Nov 2009 at 13:18 »
Hi Mike
      The original thrust bearing is a brass disk with ball bearings held captive in holes by ring staking each side. A more popular solution adopted by many in the last few years has been substitution of a prelubricated sintered metal disc. These are available under the name "Oilite". In machining the disc to size it is essential that the cutting tool is very sharp to avoid smearing over and closing the interstices between the sintered metal particles that retain the lubricant.

Thanks Chris. After posting I thought I ought to search around the forum a bit more and found Dougs post mentioning the oilite suggestion. I will deffinitely look in to that.  I have a bag full of chunks of oilte I saved when one of the sites I was working at was shut down many years back which may finally come in handy. Sadly no sheet / disks but I am sure it will be easy to find via the interweb  :) . Are there any recommended dimensions ? ID/OD thickness?

Quote
    With regard to your sprocket/driven plate problem it might be worth advertising for a good second hand example as it is unlikely that you are going to be able to save the mess you have at present to anything like the original. These items are around and I mentioned my recent autojumble purchase that was so rusty that I could not even see the screw heads retaining the back plate. Well this turned out after stripping to be remarkably good with a virtually unworn sprocket and good internals. This was the CW version which has the linings riveted separately to the front plate and the backplate unlike the EW version which has the linings riveted back to back on the driven plate. I am currently getting the friction linings renewed. (The lining on the back plate had been replaced by 15 separate pieces of material each held by a bifurcated paper rivet instead of a disk of friction material with the correct hollow rivets. It is amazing the bodges that people get up to.)

Ahhh and there was you saying just the other day that everyone had already bought up pretty much eveything at autojumbles  :lol: Maybe I will try to get to the one at Kempston on Saturday after all  :wink:  I'll have to see what is around. have to agree re the bodges... certainly from what I am finding with this bike.

Quote
  If you are unable to find a replacement assembly. You stand a good chance of separating the existing by sacrificing the actual disc. You may then be able to clean up and restore the sprocket. I have remade the disc in the past by simply spinning sheet steel in the lathe over a wooden former, This can then be drilled to take the linings and for rivetting to the sprocket. The rivets are 3/32" diameter and can be obtained from good model engineering shops in a suitable length.

I had wondered if it might be possible to put this assembly up in the lathe and part off the disk in the flat ish centre section. Fix up the hub / centre  and then fabricate a tabbed disk to suit the ID of the parted off outer and have that welded back in to the original outer disk. Would that be feasible do you think? Or would it be too tricky to align? Perhaps weld a disk back in to the centre and then work on that?

Mike 8-{>


Offline Mikerobe

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #7 on: 26 Nov 2009 at 13:26 »
Mike, if you insert Clutch Setup 1926 EW in the search box, there are some photos and very good instructions that may be of help to you.
Roy.

Thanks very much Roy. The very first photo highlights yet another part I appear to be missing on my example.



I dont have the cup washer shown here.

I am also missing the thicker thrust washer shown a bit further down the page too.  I wonder, are there any exploded diagrams anywhere of the EW350 Flywheel Clutch? The picture in the owners handbook makes more and more sense as I find images of the bits I am missing but it is difficult to picture them based only on the sectioned drawing.

I'll have to do more searching on the forums  :)

Cheers Mike 8-{>



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« Last Edit: 30 Jul 2019 at 19:20 by Doug »

Offline eddie

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #8 on: 26 Nov 2009 at 14:01 »
Mike,
        Whilst it may look a little unsightly, if the welding on the sprocket/driven plate assembly is sound and in tact, and the plate still runs true, could you not just grind back any intrusion into the bore of the sprocket with a mini-grinder (Dremel, etc.). Then buy a replacement plate when one comes available. If your attempt to repair your existing plate fails, then you will not be able to use the bike until a replacement does come along - after all, the clutch is relatively easy to get at on the EW, without having to dismantle much else. Regarding obtaining replacement rollers -" x " are readily available from bearing stockists. 3/16" x 3/16" (as used on the S6 and T6) can be obtained from stockists of BSA spares (C15 clutch rollers, I believe).

       Eddie.

Offline Mikerobe

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #9 on: 27 Nov 2009 at 00:04 »
Whilst it may look a little unsightly, if the welding on the sprocket/driven plate assembly is sound and in tact, and the plate still runs true, could you not just grind back any intrusion into the bore of the sprocket with a mini-grinder (Dremel, etc.). Then buy a replacement plate when one comes available. If your attempt to repair your existing plate fails, then you will not be able to use the bike until a replacement does come along - after all, the clutch is relatively easy to get at on the EW, without having to dismantle much else. Regarding obtaining replacement rollers -" x " are readily available from bearing stockists. 3/16" x 3/16" (as used on the S6 and T6) can be obtained from stockists of BSA spares (C15 clutch rollers, I believe).

Thanks for the suggestion Eddie. I will look into it. A spot of careful grinding is a possibility. I could really do with finding out what the dimensions / tolerances are on the bearing surfaces to see whether or not they are within service limits. I suspect that they aren't. The assembly was really sloppy prior to dismantling it all. Thanks for the details for the rollers.  There's a branch of Brammer down the road from work I'll give them a call tomorrow. That said there has been a development this evening which may provide other options (thanks Rob  :wink: )

Cheers Mike 8-{>

Offline Doug

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #10 on: 27 Nov 2009 at 00:53 »
Mike,

The roller bearing will seem looser than what you might be accustom to since it is a single row and what you may be feeling is the ease with which the plate tips verses pure radial clearance. It probably does has a bit extra radial clearance so that it can easily slide axial as you work the clutch release. Of course, it could also be just clapped out...

You do want to minimize the clearance as the pull of the chain, notwithstanding the bearing directly underneath, does tend to tip the clutch plate, as well as the pressure plate on the flywheel hub, all of which can cause the periphery of the clutch to drag even with the clutch fully released. There is not a lot of clearance for the clutch disk when the pressure plate is fully lifted, and Douglas continued to make changes to the lightweight clutch design all through the 1923-1930 time period.

As mentioned in this thread, you can get new rollers. And that is fine if most of the wear is in the rollers. If the races are worn, and you reground the surfaces, you would need to fit oversize rollers. And those are nigh impossible to get anymore. Certain sizes you can get by reworking (mainly by shortening) oversize rollers for the older Harley-Davidson and Indian v-twins. But I do not recall if 1/4 diameter is one of them. A lot of times the inner race will be stained and the outer may have what looks like chatter marks. I have also seen the sprocket bore warped slightly out of round. If not too bad you might well leave alone, since the lack of oversize rollers negates the ease of re-grinding. Keep in mind, that bearing only momentarily sees action when you lift the clutch. This is why you often see chatter marks, the rollers hammer the sleeve in one place for extended periods.

The other place the clutch can be sloppy is the pressure plate the flywheel hub interface. This is something you can rectify if you have a lathe large enough to swing the flywheel. You can give the pressure plate bore a light hone to true it up (if needed) and then turn the flywheel hub to accept a thin wall bronze sleeve on the outer diameter. Turn this to be a nice sliding fit with the pressure plate.

While the welded clutch disk center is unsightly and poor engineering, I would agree with Eddie and say best to leave it alone and meanwhile look for a better example. Put it on a mandrel and see that the disk runs true to the bore. If it wobbles, then you will have to do something to rectify that.

-Doug



[fix typo. 07Feb16, Doug]
« Last Edit: 07 Feb 2016 at 20:31 by Doug »

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #11 on: 27 Nov 2009 at 06:16 »
Hi, just following your problems.
I had no trouble getting oversize 1/4" rollers from a Harley Davidson Supplier.  They were available in increments of .0002 oversize, all the way up to .2520"
This might allow you to resize the outer bearing casing and get you going!
Good luck
Jonathan
Australia
Jonathan H.

Offline Mikerobe

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #12 on: 27 Nov 2009 at 08:36 »
Thanks very much Doug and Jonathon.  Even more excellent information and advice  :D.  I will have to see what the HD spares folks over here might have to offer and will do as you suggest Doug and check out all the various sizes and trueness of things. Making oversize bearings narrower shouldnt be a problem as I have access to a surface grinder if the need arrises.

Thanks

Mike 8-{>

Offline roy

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Re: Dismantling EW Flywheel Clutch
« Reply #13 on: 27 Nov 2009 at 17:09 »
Mike, going with Eddies comment, I obtained  BSA rollers when I rebuilt my EW clutch, made an excellent job.