Author Topic: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)  (Read 10414 times)

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Offline davebarkshire

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Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« on: 16 May 2008 at 17:43 »
I've just had a shed session with the flywheel and have some questions.

Now that I have the 'dog eared washer' my flywheel parts should be complete but I still can't quite see how it works and am determined not to put the Douggie into the broken bikes pile because it is so close to being rideable and the summer is just around the corner.

When I put it together with the springs just giving a little pressure the clutch arm could not be pulled beyond a certain point as though everything was locked solid.

1) The pressed steel 'washer' which the clutch springs press against... Have I got it the right way around? (see photo)

2) The friction material is riveted on both sides to the plate. The total thickness is 0.35". Does this sound about right?

3) When the thrust washer is pressed against, the friction plate is almost at the end of its travel.

4) Any pointers would be most welcome. I can post additional photos if that would help.









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« Last Edit: 30 Jul 2019 at 18:12 by Doug »

Offline Stuart Lister

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #1 on: 16 May 2008 at 22:00 »
Hi Dave,

I measured mine a while ago, when someone asked a simalar question. I wrote at the time

"I just measured mine, which has only done a couple of hundred miles since it was relined. The total thickness is 8.5mm. That's 2mm of spring steel with 3.25mm of friction material on both sides."

That relates to 0.33" Pretty darn close.

Hope this helps,

Stuart.


Offline davebarkshire

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #2 on: 17 May 2008 at 12:03 »
Thanks for the replies thst I received both on and off forum.

Looking at the way the friction plate is moving away from the plain plate it seems that there is very little movement or room for it to get away from the plain plate and I wonder if this is the problem? In short I think that there is nowhere for the friction plate to go when its all bolted up.

Here are a couple more photos which show the actuation components.








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Offline Doug

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #3 on: 18 May 2008 at 05:13 »
Dave,

The cup washer goes the other way, cup facing the springs. It does not allow the pressure plate to move that much further, but it does stop the washer from bottoming on the radius of the hub on the flywheel. The rim stops the coil springs from flying out under centrifugal force, and perhaps binding in the holes where they pass through the flywheel.

There is not a lot of clearance for the clutch disk. With the springs removed and the cup washer right way around, you can test the position of the pressure plate in what would be the fully released condition. It can go no further. Set the clutch disk on the pressure plate, and measure how much clearance you have to the rabbet where the backing plate seats. In this used EW example, there is 3/32" clearance (see image below.) Probably you would want no less than 1/16” when the linings are new; else the clutch might not release enough to free the disk. It would not need much if the disk stayed true, but it likely wobbles and rattles about a bit in there, so it needs all the clearance it can get.

Also, make sure your pressure plate drive dog washer is inboard of the cup washer.



-Doug



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Offline davebarkshire

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #4 on: 26 Jun 2008 at 07:26 »
I have some success to report! This week has been Douglas week for me and the shed activity has scored a breakthrough. The reason why the clutch was not free was because the dog eared washer was pushing against friction plate when tightened up. Maybe there should be a spacer washer behind it but I decided to grind a little off the ears and this has given the friction plate enough room to move clear. So the next step is to fire up and road test which hopefully will result in a Douglas which is ready for the road.

Also..... I had to remove the timing chest cover to get at the valve lifter mechanism and although I got the cover off without disturbing the timing, I did manage to disturb it by accident about an hour later when turning the engine over (doh!).

Anyway, when the cover first came off I took some very high resolution photos of the gears in their proper positions and when the timing was disturbed I cropped the photo and printed it out. With this in hand I could see by looking at any scratches in the metal exactly how the wheels lined up. This saved me a load of time and agro so I thought that I should mention this as it has proved to be a good tip.

Remember too that when you have just rebuilt a machine or just timed the valves to take a photo. Take several photos and make them very high quality. When you take the cover off the next time and a gear wheel pops out you may well be able to put it back in the right place without having to spend hours.





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Offline Doug

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #5 on: 26 Jun 2008 at 12:29 »
Dave,

One side of the drive-dog washer tabs should have a generous radius (which faces towards the friction plate.) Did you replicate this feature? Presumably it provided a little extra clearence, without having a washer under the tabed washer.

-Doug

Offline davebarkshire

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #6 on: 26 Jun 2008 at 17:53 »
Doug, There was a radius but it wasn't quite enough to clear the friction plate. I think that by grinding the radius a little more has just given me that little extra. When I pull in the clutch and press the kick starter the clutch does now free! It's not as free as a conventional clutch but it may improve once it's been bedded in a little.

I've only used 4 springs and don't find it easy to tighten up the central nut without the springs moving around and collapsing. Maybe it's because they are new.

I'm not sure what should be done regarding priming the oil system. I think that I'll put some oil in the bowl as it's not been started for a long time. I'd imagine that the engine will have been run for a mile or two before a drip can be seen?

Offline bazza

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jun 2008 at 21:08 »
What is mean,t by generous radius ?????????

Bazza

Offline Doug

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #8 on: 27 Jun 2008 at 01:16 »
Bazza,

By generous radius I mean the ends of the tab washer should cut right back. Not just rounding the edge over with a small radius. You could probably just bevel off the ends and have just as good a result. See sketch-



If you look in the EW handbook at the section view of the flywheel clutch, you can see the tab washer's location, and the corresponding radius of the slot it needs to avoid.

Dave,

The nut that adjusts the spring pressure should bear against a large, pressed sheet metal cup washer that the coil springs bear against. To stop this washer from revolving with the nut, there are two indentations in the rim that keys into a corresponding ’bump’.





Often these ‘bumps’ get pressed or deformed out of the way or the cup washer is a sloppy fit in the ring and there is nothing to stop the washer from rotating with the nut when adjustments are being made to the spring pre-load. Later clutches replaced the pressed tin washer with one machined from thick plate, with six pockets for the ends of the coil springs to register in. But they still had the same sheet metal outer ring, and much the same problem. A little wipe of grease between the adjusting nut and the face of the spring washer also will cut down on the amount of counter-torque the washer has to cope with.

-Doug



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Offline davebarkshire

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #9 on: 27 Jun 2008 at 08:19 »
The dog eared washer is one that the club has had recently made up and it looks perfect. I think that there must be something different about my clutch which has made me modify mine slightly. Below is a drawing to show what was ground away. It's only a small amount.

I do have the steel ring with the guide notches and it does fit. My problem is the ring which holds the springs is so far away from the guide ring even though it is already semi-tight. I will try holding it with some gloves.

Photo shows the springs already fairly well compressed but not near to the flywheel yet.








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Offline davebarkshire

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #10 on: 28 Jun 2008 at 09:34 »
I've just had an attempt to start the EW. It fires up right away so the valve timing must be spot on. There is oil everywhere and even after draining the sump plug the exhaust is thick with smoke and oil splashes everywhere and then the engine dies (probably choked with smoke). There is still a knocking sound form the engine and whilst it's not what I know as a completely knackered big end it is still worrying as I know these motors should be as sweet as a nut. I was listening at Banbury last week and the EWs sounded glorious.

So my question is this... because I don't want to spend the rest of my life making the EW worse and would really like to enjoy riding it... is there someone who is a mechanic/engineer who is well known for sorting out Douggies? Ideally they would be not far from the west country and would not charge superstar money?

phone 01271 889360
email <<<address removed for privacy>>>
« Last Edit: 30 Jul 2019 at 18:15 by Doug »

Offline tommy

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #11 on: 29 Jun 2008 at 21:49 »
Shame you could not have got the bike to the Douglas Rally at Stow on the Wold today. There was a field full of highly knowlegable people and machines including EW.
You would have had plenty of help and opinions, along with listening to other bikes to see if your noise is peculiar. All in sunshine :D
There are a good few experts in the West Country (the bikes came from there) but a few are still out on the road from the meet.
Malcolm Meinertzhagen is very good to talk to along with Chris Wright, although neither are in the West Country.
Can not volunteer anyone for the job, but your best bet is via the club. I am sure they will come forward.

Have you stripped the engine to check the crank before running?
They can be a weak spot depending on oiling system etc.
Had to have my B29 crank redone. Worth it though. Heart of the engine. Getting pricey to have done now. 
Good luck

Tom

Offline Doug

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jun 2008 at 03:12 »
Dave,

Has anyone disturbed the cylinders that you know of? If the barrels have been off without a re-bore, it could be the piston rings are just tapping the wear ridge at the top of the stroke Tapping should get louder as the RPM increases. If so, do not keep at it as it will eventually break the top piston rings You will know as the compression will drop significantly. It could also start to burn more oil if only a two ring piston, but that is more a problem of the lower piston rings failing.

The sound could mimic a rod knock. Do the old screwdriver stethoscope  trick to see if the knock is in the crankcase or the top end.

Or it could be the big ends, they do wear. But they have to be worn pretty bad to knock loudly. Usually they just quietly chew into the center crankshaft web! It is nothing to fret about, all the 350 EWs and decedents do it! Loose wrist pins will knock too and are much cheaper to rectify, unless they have knocked out the circlips and tram lined the bores. Sounds like though it need a thorough mechanical investigation, as something is amiss and you do not want it to do something dramatic to get your attention, like chucking a rod. Unless you did the engine rebuild yourself, or know the bloke that did it or the bike's history, it is safer to assume the insides are knackered. Then if you are wrong it is a pleasant surprise. Do not get to the bottom of it and hope for the best, and it could be unpleasant!  :(

-Doug

Offline davebarkshire

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Re: Clutch Setup (1926 EW)
« Reply #13 on: 30 Jun 2008 at 07:54 »
I was hoping to be able to come on the run at Stow which was the main motivation for the recent spate of work on the EW and if it was running ok I would have come along. It's booked to ride the VMCC September Scurry at the Isle of Wight but I'll have to probably take another machine.

I haven't had the engine in bits as it came to me as an 'older restoration'. I've not gone beyond the flywheel or timing chest cover.

When the timing chest cover was off I did notice a bit of sludge in there. I do like to ride bikes fairly hard and would like to enjoy the EW on full song without having to worry about any fragility. The other flat tankers that I ride seem to like being ridden this way and the EW does have a very revvy quality.

So it looks like it would be a good idea to have the engine looked at by someone who knows what they're doing. It's a bike that I'd like to keep so is worth the effort.

 

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