1914? Douglas

[Ian]

Folks, a guy sent this photo to our bike club to see if anyone could identify both the model and the actual bike. Any information appreciated. My thoughts are that it may be slightly later as from what I can tell of the photo the oil pump is of the later style ? ...Ian

[Chris]

       The most obvious and generally considered features distinguishing between 1914 and later is the mounting of the rear stand on the frame and a stepped two part timing case on the engine. The rear stand of the "Veteran" Douglas, as defined by The Sunbeam Motorcycle Club,  is pivoted directly in the rear fork tube a couple of inches in front of the rear spindle. On the later, 1915 on, it is pivoted in a fork plate below the wheel spindle. This was a modification to improve the strength of the rear fork.
       There are other minor differences in the way frame lugs are formed around the front down tube etc. but this is certainly not noticeable without close examination. From the photograph above, although one can persuade oneself that the rear stand is mounted in the rear fork, it is not perfectly clear. Perhaps it is better seen on the original. Also the angle of the view of the engine does not make it clear whether it has the earlier engine with the stepped timing case.     Chris.

[Ian]

Chris, I just managed to blow up the photo a bit - I am sure the stand is pivoted directly in front of the spindle. Also, contrary to my previous post I think I can see the cylindrical type oil pump as well. Talking with Graeme the other day he also was wodering about the tank pattern - when did the three panel paint work discontinue ?

[Chris]

Hi Ian
       Sorry but I do not know when the three panel paintwork changed. There are so many variations in existence with most machines having been repainted at some time that it is difficult to be positive. Anyone with a collection of original artwork/illustrated brochures/handbooks relating to the period may be able to give an informed view. Chris.

[MRD]

Hi All
I have been studying the photo, although it does not enlarge very well, I believe that this is an early frame as you mentioned earlier 1913 or 14. The stand looks as though the pivot is in front of the spindle and in line with the frame arm. All other give away signs on the frame are difficult to see.

The engine looks as though it might be later 1915 - 25. The timing cover is a one piece item rather than the two piece stepped version from the previous years.
the cylinders are early as there is no fining on the casting where the induction tube fits, I do not know when they started to put fining on that part of the casting. so it might be a replacement engine, for what ever reason.

Hope this helps. although a bit  late.
Regards      Martin

[Doug]

The 1916 catalog is the first year the two-panel tanks appear. Also the rear brake works on the outside of the belt rim and not the inside.

As there is no vertical tube from the rear axle to the toolbox, I would say this has the new for 1915 style rear carrier. Also the 1915 catalog shows arched fork links, and straight for 1914. I think I see a hint of the arch style? So my guess 1915.

The pivot point for the 1914 and 1915 rear stand, while different, are so close to each other that it can be hard to tell one from the other except in a square on side-view.

All based on catalog pictures, so caveat-emptor.

-Doug

[eddie]

On close inspection, the cycle parts look to be predominantly pre WW1, but the engine is almost certainly later (one piece timing cover). How's this for a thought? - it is well documented that Douglas took back a large number of ex-WD machines at the end of the war and refurbished them as civilian models. Presumably, these machines would still have had the date of manufacture as 1913-14, but could have had post 1918 parts fitted (i.e. the engine). Doug thinks the rear carrier could be 1916 type, but from the catalogue pictures I have, this item looks more like the style fitted in the early 20's - but this, of course, may have been fitted at a later time. Most of us don't put enough detail on the backs of our photos - at the time, the minor detail seems obvious, but years later, doubt arises. So "Dad's Old Douglas Bike (1914)" could refer to the year of the bike, the year of the photo or, possibly, the details could even have been added at a later date! (in which case it was probably just a guess).