Oil pump on early works racers

[MRD]

Dear all
Does any one have information / pictures about the external oil pump on the 1912/13 works bikes.
The best picture I have seen is the head on view of S.L.Bailey (1912 Brooklands/ TT).
There is no sign of a sight glass as we know it, although there seems to be a cutaway section in the pump tube itself. So did it not have a sight glass, was the feed regulated by just a tap, or is the regulator built in to the pump.
Is there anyone who could shed some light?
Regards.... MRD

[nickcanfor]

Dear all
Does any one have information / pictures about the external oil pump on the 1912/13 works bikes.
The best picture I have seen is the head on view of S.L.Bailey (1912 Brooklands/ TT).
There is no sign of a sight glass as we know it, although there seems to be a cutaway section in the pump tube itself. So did it not have a sight glass, was the feed regulated by just a tap, or is the regulator built in to the pump.
Is there anyone who could shed some light?
Regards.... MRD

Dear MRD
It is great to see that there are others, besides me, interested in the pre WW1 works racers. I do not have the answers to your questions but may be able to provide you with additional information, that I hope is useful to you. In no particular order:
•   I was looking to buy/construct one of these pumps for my Douglas TT which is modelled on Harry Bashells 1912 TT winner. In this respect I took a picture of the Rem Fowler (supposedly – I know there is some doubt) Norton that won the 1907 I of M TT. I do not think the pump is identical to the works pumps but I think it is very similar. This machine and pump is in the National Motorcycle Museum in Coventry England. This pump does not appear to have a regulator and I wonder if the sight glass is there merely to show that there is oil in the system.
•   I wonder whether the pump that you see pictured did have a regulator. Other machines of time had a simple pump action where it was the skill of the rider that monitored the amount of lubrication. My 1912 Triumph has one of these and it works quite well.
•   I am aware that other riders in 1912 used the external pump. James Stuart, No8 in the 1912 TT had one and there is a picture in the Motorcycle dated 4th July 1912. You can get a copy of the photo from Mortons Media but the cost of getting a photo of the picture is a bit high at £10-£15.
•   In the period after 1912, Douglas experimented with other lubrication systems including dual internal (to the tank) pumps; a foot operated affair and on my TT model (and I have seen it on another TT model) a dual system running off one pump, that has a bi-pass valve which enable you to ‘dump’ oil into the engine if you require.
•   I would have thought that the external pump would have been a commercially available item and was not bespoke to Douglas. Perhaps there  are some catalogues ie Enots or someone where the pump is listed.
•   I also attach a picture of Bashells 1912 bike with the external pump – but it is not a good photo.
•   I attach a picture of my machine.

Please let me know if I can help further and please let me know if you manage to glean any more information. Are you creating a replica? Have you a works bike? I would be delighted to hear from a kindred spirit.
Regards
Nick

[MRD]

Nick
Thanks for the reply
Firstly, can I say what a fine looking machine you have.

I recently spent some time in the Vintage motorcycle clubs archives, looking through some of the early publications. I found various pictures but unfortunately no article saying anything about the pump.  Although time was cut short and I had not gone through everything. I don’t live very close, so it will be some time before I’m back to resume my studying of this subject.

I think we have the same thoughts regarding the pump; the glass cut away is to show oil is in the system. The feed was probably set at the pre race pit session. As it would only have to last one race before being looked at again, also in race conditions it was possibly difficult to see the “drip” and adjust.

I will attach a couple of pictures, first of S L Bailey head on as per my previous message, and second of the advertisement from Douglas showing a 1912 Brooklands TT win with a picture of S L Bailey in it. Apologies for the slight distortion, as it was copied from the book by digital camera, and I was unable to get the page flat enough. 

Regards    MRD

[MRD]

Sorry, I forgot to post the second picture.
Please find picture of Douglas advertisment from 1912 for a Brooklands TT win
Regards   MRD

[MRD]

Dear all
Another paper clipping. This time of the 1912 junior TT Douglas Team.

Careful study of the photo shows four out of the six bikes have the external pump.
The two bikes on the left are at an angle that you can’t see if they have the pump or not.

Another oddity is the right angle bend on the carburettor air intake on Bailey’s machine (far right). I’ve not seen that on other pictures of his machines.
Regards  MRD

[Doug]

MRD may not have seen it, but there are some pictures of Bashall's and Bailey's machines in this older thread in the Douglas Racing History board.

Link to topic-

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php/topic,2012.0.html

But for now keep oil pumps in this thread, and comments on Bashall, Bailey, and other TT machines for 1912 in the other thread. I know, it gets a bit gray as to which topic to be in!

-Doug

[MRD]

Thank Doug
My original question was regarding the oil pump and sight glass, as they were so unusual.
Thanks for puttining the link in. It was partly looking at these pictures on there originally, which got the old grey matter going on the oil pump.

Doug, what are your thoughts on this subject? also If these bike were so successful why did they go back to the pump in the tank, surly this was more cost effective and less time consuming to build. Although cosmetically not so neat and tidy.
Regards   MRD

[Doug]

Doug, what are your thoughts on this subject?

Well, none definitively. My main focus is the 1925-1938 models. I do not know a lot about the 2-3/4hp, particularly the earlier ones, other than the pictures I was able to glean from early sales catalogs and the general observations that can be made from them. Historical aspects I have none.

Going by general observations, there seems little reason for them to have used the external hand pump. At first I thought perhaps it offered more capacity than the small vertical plunger in the tank, but then I see some of the 1912 catalog models (the more deluxe models that got the newest features like the O,P, and R) had the larger inclined pump built into the tank. There does not seem to be any reason why one of those petrol tanks could not have been used, other than the very slight increase in oil compartment capacity by having the pump external (basically one plunger's worth of oil.) I am inclined to suspect that the external pump, likely bought in, offered some feature lacking in the Douglas manufactured item that certain riders felt was compulsory. If a match can be made to a period Best & Loydd or similar supplier catalog, it may describe some special feature, like a glass window allowing one to see the pump is full of oil and not air. No mention of the external oil pumps is made in the 1913 catalog, when discussing their competitive successes.

-Doug

[MRD]

Doug
What a mind of information you are, I think you may be right, I have since seen a picture / diagram of a Best & Loydd pump which looks similar.
Another thought is that may be its just to give the oil tank a bit more capacity. As you can see from the advertisement there were two records broken 150 miles and distance over three hours. with the pump out of the tank, it will give you the equivalent of two full pumps extra. This could give you five or more extra miles, I know I could get at least that distance out of my own 2 3/4.
Doug thanks also for the pictures you just put on, there are a couple there which I have not seen before.
Regards  MRD

[Dirt Track]

G'day all
Interesting topic!
I have scanned a page from a 1916 Davison Motor Adjuncts catalogue showing their tank fitted oil pumps....not the same as Douglas used but similar.
I wonder if Douglas fitted them externally on the racers because of the likelyhood of problems with leaking due to vibration?
Howard.
PS This Davison catalogue has a sticker over its original date on the front cover....I imagine it is actually much older, it shows tank design going back to well before 1910.