Douglasmotorcycles.net

General => Douglas Motorcycles - General Discussion => Topic started by: Peterjmg on 15 May 2018 at 13:53

Title: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Peterjmg on 15 May 2018 at 13:53
Hi Dave, I've just found this forum after searching on and off for years looking for information on my Great-Great-Uncle (Stephen) Les Bailey. Our family folklore is that he was a motorcycle champion.

I haven't found any information on that aspect, but he's attributed to be the designer of the RA Douglas.

Great photo btw!

Peter.

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Dave on 16 May 2018 at 17:40
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your message and welcome to the Forum.
You will find Les Bailey's name mentioned many times throughout these pages - a search on 'Bailey' will give you a list of posts.
This post by Doug (https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2012.msg7337#msg7337) has some good photos.

Dave

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2007/Bashall/Bailey-1912-Brookland-1000.jpg)

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2007/Bashall/Bailey-1912-French-Prix-a-1000.jpg)

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2007/Bashall/1912-TT-Team-1000.jpg)
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 16 May 2018 at 17:50
Peter,

You might want to start a new topic on S.L. Bailey under the General Discussion board, rather than buried here under the model RA topic. I corresponded with Ian Bailey, SLB's son back in 2002. He could recall as a very young lad leaving the UK with his father and returning to Australia in 1924. He was able to provide some missing details about SLB after he left Douglas.

-Doug


Note: Topic has since been moved to the General Discussion board.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Peterjmg on 17 May 2018 at 01:14
Thanks Doug and Dave,

I am keen to get reading! I also sent a question to Doug about copying the photos. I see that none of them seem to be personal photos, i.e. they're from print publications, so I'm assuming it's ok to copy them, and will do so?

thanks, Peter.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 20 May 2018 at 06:14

I find myself 1600 km from home, in Northern New South Wales. Along the way we drove through the country town of Forbes, about 400 km (250 miles) west of Sydney.

I hadn't realised that Les Bailey had some history there, but the attached snippet from the Forbes Advocate in 1913 tells the story.

Is there a decent biography of Bailey in the books, the Con Rod, the New Con Rod, or the classic mags? He was a most interesting Australian.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 22 May 2018 at 07:31

"It is six years ago since Mr Bailey first came to Forbes, and he was known here as a crack bicycle rider."

The Forbes Advocate said it, 12 Feb 1913, so it must be true. Bailey arrived in Forbes in (early?) 1907, at which time Forbes would have had some lovely buildings and houses around the centre of town (many still standing), but could otherwise be described as "way out west" of Sydney. Not the outback, but not too far from it.

A crack cyclist? In Forbes perhaps, but in the big smoke of Sydney not so much. In late January 1906, a year before his move to Forbes, Les entered the "The Sydney Thousand" bike race along with 142 other "cracks" from around the country. One mile handicap, prizes totaling a thousand pounds.

The real cracks started on scratch; Les started 170 yards - almost a full one-tenth of a mile - in front, with 30-ish starters ahead to chase down and  110-ish behind planning to mow him down within the mile.

I bet it was around then he began thinking of a career as a racing motor cyclist!

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 23 May 2018 at 06:02
This was as summary I was putting together to make into a exhibit poster for one of the Australian Douglas Rallys, but it never got completed. I had been in contact with Ian Leslie Bailey, S.L. Bailey's son 2002-2006 who provided some of the details. Not only had he been collecting information both on his father's side of the family, but also his mother's. His mother was Cyril G. Pullen's sister. Ian mentioned he had about eleven folders worth of family history collected and was going to write up the family history, but I don;t think it ever got completed.

Stephen Leslie Bailey, 1889 – 1957

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-01.jpg&hash=f3714b6c296dea228a37d58d637b0f9b)
Earliest known picture of S.L. Bailey.  (scan via Ian Leslie Bailey, S.L. Bailey’s son.)

The Motor Cycle, October 10, 1912, “Current Chat”. (photocopy I.L.B.)
£200 Challenge. Sponsored by F.S. Whitworth of the Colmore Department and G.H. Mansell of Singer and Co. LTD. Between S.L. Bailey on a 2-3/4hp Douglas and G.E.Stanley on a Singer, both record holders. Cylinder capacity limit 350cc.  Hill climb, five lap, and a ten lap race at Brooklands. Article continued on following page, not seen. Outcome not known. (Note from I.L.B., the two were great competitors and friends.)

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-02.jpg&hash=0eb54e83d015acc1cac9653eafe04a18)
Photo from frontis, “The Pictorial History of Motorcycling”, Tony Middlehurst. Captioned as taken at the 1912 Challenge Lap, Brooklands.


Special 2-3/4hp engine with modified valve gear that gave a power output of 8hp at 3,600rpm, with a free engine speed of nearly 5,000rpm. Announcement that several machines (the aforementioned?) would be entered for the 1912 junior TT. Riders, all listed as amateurs, were Les Bailey, James Stewart, Teddy Kickham, Jack Haslam, and Harry Bashall. From The Best Twin, “Les Bailey was a young Australian who had emigrated to Britain in search of work. Infatuated with motorcycles, he applied for a job with the Colmore Depot in Birmingham, where E.C. Paskell was quick to recognize his riding ability. He mentioned this during a visit to Bristol and Bailey gained a place as a ‘works’ rider.”

Bailey led at the end of the first lap, but by Ramsey gearbox trouble forced a retirement at the hairpin. Harry Bashall went on to win Douglas’ first TT victory. Les Bailey and Teddy Kickham, after a quick overhaul, used their mounts in the Senior race where despite the displacement disadvantage took fifteenth and seventeenth place respectively.

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-03.jpg&hash=e31d93594139f955c98f62a4f0a74f3e)
(1913 Douglas Catalog)

At the end of 1912, Les Bailey entered the Brooklands T.T. race, breaking the one hundred and fifty and the three hour records in the Junior event. Several days later, he then won a race at LeMans, with Teddy Kickham and Harry Bashall taking fourth and sixth places. Then Bailey took the flying kilometer record at Brookland, at 72.63mph on a 2-3/4hp. Granville Bradshaw, at Bailey’s request, made some of the special parts for the record breaking machine. It is said this work set Bradshaw on the road for development of a horizontally opposed that would become the ABC design. (“The Best Twin”) 


Douglas advert/announcement in the Motor Cycling, 31 December, 1912: Riding a 2-3/4hp Douglas [Bailey] broke the Mile and Kilometer 350cc records. 72.63 mph for the kilometer, 70.04 mph for the mile.

Summary of write up of record event in, Motor Cycling, 24 December, 1912.:
Geared 5:1, engine was running 4650 rpm for the event. Claimed 6700 rpm free maximum (on stand).

Left England ‘Friday last’ to return to Australia. Returning to AU with P. Weatherilt with several Douglases for the AU season. While in England, S.L.B. designed a 500cc horizontally opposed twin with steel cylinders and pistons, OHV, turning 4000 rpm and developing 17bhp. Taken up by a ‘very famous record breaking motorcyclist (un-named), probably to be manufactured commercially.’ Entire external surfaces of the crankcase are machined. Expected to reach AU mid February.

Note from I.L.B.: This was fifteen months prior to joining Douglas.

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-04.jpg&hash=bcbe5486344832412ae27ec16f7ac702)
Captioned as first machine of 350cc to exceed 70mph (“Douglas” Peter Carrick) originally credited Motor Cycle Weekly. Same image, cropped, used in Douglas advert in 31st December 1912 issue of Motor Cycling).

Records in 1912 (1913 Douglas catalog)

•   June 1st- B.M.C.R.C. All Comers’ Hour Race at Brooklands. First, Total distance 56 miles, 755 yards. Gold Medal
•   July 1st- Senior Tourist Trophy Race, I.o.M. Gold Medal (What? He came in fifteenth.)
•   July 20th- B.M.C.R.C. Fifth members meeting at Brooklands. All Comers’ 5 Lap Handicap Race (about 14 miles). First.
•   July 20th- Junior five miles scratch race. Second.
•   July 20th- Test Hill Climb. First.
•   July 27th- R.A.C. Inter Club Meeting at Brooklands Short Distance Handicap. Third in heat, forth in final.
•   August 30th- Coventry M.C.C. Open Hill Climb at Woodway Hill, near Daventry. One  First, three thirds. Also winner of President’s Cup.
•   September 8th- Motorcycling International Cup Race at Le Mans, France. (246 miles) First.
•   September 14th- B.M.C.R.C. Junior Tourist Trophy Race at Brooklands, Twelfth Short Motorcycle Handicap. First
•   October 3rd- Mr. S.L. Bailey beat 5 Miles Record by 10 seconds at a speed of 61-81mph, Brooklands.

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-05.jpg&hash=bc55eff839b3e8e3cb2d74ef262fa5f8)
Bailey c1912 (1913 Douglas catalog)


(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-06.jpg&hash=a855fdcb7d0bd55f2671a49b34034295)
Bailey winning the 1912 French Grand Prix. Averaged 47mph for five hours. (1913 Douglas catalog)

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-07.jpg&hash=ab60ed5f923f0a060845f25cd4a988c5)
Possibly take on the grounds of “Woodlawns”, William Douglas’ residence on the Cowley Road. (1913 Douglas catalog)

Bailey returned to Australia in 1913, to help set up Douglas agencies (I.L.B.: and reestablish his motorcycle records.) He returned to the UK in 1914, entered in the I.o.M. Junior TT race, where he finished seventeenth. (“The Best Twin”)

During the Great War Bailey was involved in production at Douglas, though in what capacity and job title is not clear. 

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-08.jpg&hash=fb91c6d8cd948520552b47560d6f64c3)
Douglas workshop, Brooklands. Bailey with a racing OHV model. Captioned 1919. (“The Best Twin”)

Date not specified, but in 1919 or 1920, Bailey became Works manager. A riding accident had ended his racing career. In conjunction with chief designer Walter Moore and a draughtsman named Curtis, set to work designing the first catalog OHV machines, the 3-1/2hp and 6hp Sports, which was revealed in a November 2, 1920 issue of Motor Cycling for the 1921 season. This was not much more than an adaptation of the previous two seasons racing models. (“The Best Twin”)

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2FBailey%2FBailey-09.jpg&hash=cf6228cd7af80328ccc39e148dfb7c46)
Bailey as Works Manager. (“The Best Twin”)

After the Great War, Cyril G. Pullin participated in many events at Brookland, where he got to know Bailey. A friendship between Pullin’s sister Catharine (Kate) and Bailey led to their eventual marriage. Bailey lent Pullin a Douglas, which he then proceeded to rebalance to eliminate a high speed vibration. Bailey then asked Pullin to further develop the 3-1/2hp, setting up a shop at Brookland where he tuned the 3-1/2hp to be sold with a certified 100mph performance. (“The Best Twin”)

Models appeared to stagnate in 1922, but behind the scene Bailey was working on the now legendary RA models. In conjunction with Rex Judd, Jack Emerson, Pullin, and others it was got ready for the 1923 TT races. Manxman Tom Sheard won the 1923 Senior mounted on a RA in appalling conditions; however besides the hometown advantage Sheard had won the previous year’s Junior race on a AJS. (“The Best Twin”) Freddie Dixon won the 1923 I.o.M. sidecar race with an RA model and special banking sidecar chassis.

The success in 1923 was overshadowed by the death of Bailey’s good friend, Willie Douglas during TT week at the comparatively young age of forty-three. At the same time William Douglas, Willie’s father was having tax problems with the Inland Revenue from profits earned during the Great War. He took into confidence W. Millman, former school agent and unemployed political agent. Probably today he would be known as a lobbyist. Millman offered to intercede, which William accepted. After some initial success in negotiations he then offered a Millman a position on the board. The rapid, and hasty rise did not sit well with Bailey, and neither saw eye to eye. Bailey decided to leave Douglas and return to Australia. At his suggestion, Cyril Pullin then became Chief Designer and Works Superintendent. (“The Best Twin”)

Sailed from London to Sydney, Jan 16, 1925 aboard the “Maloja” operated by the Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Co. Accompanied by his wife Kate and son and daughter Ian Leslie and Dinah Elizabeth (both 8 years of age).

Kate and the children later returned to the UK.

Operated the Maroubra Racing Track according to his son. Other internet sources state it was Penrith Speedway. I have not been able to independently associate Bailey with either. The track fell on hard times due to dwindling attendance and virtually wiped Bailey out financially (I.L.B.).
 
Setup a retail automotive and repair business in Sydney.

Passed away 1957



-Doug

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 25 May 2018 at 10:31

Thanks Doug - great, interesting information.

I can add some stuff, and correct a couple of small errors.

Let me start with the brilliant photo of young Les Bailey in 1910 mounted on his "1000 cc Temple Anzani". The bike is in fact the 5 hp Massey JAP that Bailey raced, mostly in Newcastle (where he lived and worked) and Sydney in 1910 and 1911. It's typical of an Australian-built machine of the period, using the 5 hp JAP twin, with atmospheric inlet valves, in Chater Lea cycle parts. I'm not sure of the capacity of this engine, but probably 600 cc or there-abouts.

The "Massey" brand originated with the Canada Cycle and Motor Co (CCMC) who marketed Massey-Harris bicycles worldwide. In Australia CCMC built and marketed motorcycles under the Massey brand. During 1910 and 1911 Bailey worked at the CCMC branch at 21 Hunter St, West Newcastle.

We can date the photo, because it appeared in the Sydney paper Referee, 30 March 1910, the week after Bailey "a young Newcastle rider" became the  "five miles champion of N. S. Wales". The bike was fairly new, having had only one previous outing. It could have been built by Bailey at his work place, or built for him, or acquired elsewhere as this type of engine/frame combo would have been current 1908-09-10.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Paul Coney on 11 Oct 2018 at 20:13
Hi
I recently inherited this gold medal presented to S.L.Bailey for winning the “Allcomers handicap” race at Brooklands on July 20th 1912.
It was left to me by my grandfather who got it from his father, my great grandfather. He was into his bike racing when he was young, thats all I know of the history behind it I’m afraid. No idea how he ended up owning it.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 11 Oct 2018 at 23:01

Fabulous trophy Paul. Your great grandfather's name was...?

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 11 Oct 2018 at 23:16

Here's the description of the race. There was also a photo in the Motor Cycle report - the same one posted higher up this thread with the caption "Photo from frontis, “The Pictorial History of Motorcycling”, Tony Middlehurst. Captioned as taken at the 1912 Challenge Lap, Brooklands." The bike was a very quick little 350 side valve Douglas.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Paul Coney on 14 Oct 2018 at 13:34
His name was William John Webb (Bill). I’ve just discovered he worked at the Douglas factory in Kingswood for a while when he was a teenager. Apparently he was a pipe-bender there, maybe something to do with the frame building, I’m not sure.
I’m guessing Les Bailey must have known him and gave him this medal at some point?? Perhaps he had something to do with the building of the bike he won the race on... who knows???
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 15 Oct 2018 at 11:20
Interesting Paul. I don't know of Bill Webb, but perhaps we will come across him.

1912 was a year of extraordinary progress for Douglas and Bailey. By December Bailey had arranged for Granville Bradshaw to build steel cylinders, conrods and overhead-valve cylinders for his racing Douglas, and this allowed him to set high speed 350cc records at Brooklands: nearly 73 mph for the flying kilometre, eclipsing the old record by a full 5 mph. The 1912 ohv 350 was said to rev to 6500 rpm.

For this development we should perhaps thank George Stanley and his team at Singer. Over the summer of 1912 there was constant chatter in the motorcycle press about a match race at Brooklands between Stanley on the Singer and Bailey on the Douglas. This head-to-head race didn't eventuate, in part because Stanley was about to unveil his new 350 ohv Singer - his previous mount being sv. No doubt Bailey was keen not to be left behind in the transition to valves upstairs.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 16 Oct 2018 at 11:18

Bailey's 1914 Brooklands machine was similar, but the heads were obviously different. The late 1912 engine had the inlet manifolds entering vertically; by 1914 the entry was angled.

Bailey shattered 350cc sidecar records on this machine - perhaps this was not a very competitive class!

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 16 Oct 2018 at 21:36
In Doug's summary higher in the thread, there's a photo of SLB on the 1912 side-valve racer (Captioned as first machine of 350cc to exceed 70mph (“Douglas” Peter Carrick) originally credited Motor Cycle Weekly. Same image, cropped, used in Douglas advert in 31st December 1912 issue of Motor Cycling).

Did the side-valve exceed 70 mph in 1912? I suspect not - I think it was the first of the OHV racers, with sporty parts courtesy of Granville Bradshaw at ABC.

Pre-war, SLB was a rider with Douglas, but presumably he contributed to the development of the racing motorcycles. Postwar his role in design and development was very clear, and if the patent record is to be believed he was responsible for many/most of the Douglas racing developments up to 1924. Almost every part of the RA, as well as the S1 disc brake, various clutches, welded frames and so on.

A mystery however is the 4-valve-per-cylinder OHV motor that appeared at Brooklands in 1919. The cylinders were one-piece and were said to be aluminium. One of the Bailey patents describes aluminium castings shrunk onto steel/iron skeletons, so maybe this was part of the design of this motor?

The frame in which this motor appear is a precursor to the S1 (or a development from the 1914 3 1/2/4 hp model), with splayed down tubes but a single tube cradling for the motor. So far as I can see, all pre-war racers used the single-down-tube frame.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 22 Oct 2018 at 04:58
So far as I can see, all pre-war racers used the single-down-tube frame.
Wrong on that one: at least some of the 1914 TT bikes (12 in the Junior and 2 in the Senior) used the splayed-front-down-tube frame. Here's W. Thornhill's Junior entry (the "Thornton" label is an error). He, Bailey, and many of the other Douglas riders failed to finish.
An interesting feature of the 1914 TT bikes was the twin hand oil pumps, perhaps one for the front and one for the rear cylinders? Cyril Pullin's 1914 Senior-winning Rudge had a foot pedal to operate the oil pump so he didn't have to take his hand off the bars. Instead, the Douglas riders had two pumps on the tank to fiddle with.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Ian on 22 Oct 2018 at 22:43
Leon, I assume the two hand pumps were spring loaded like normal Douglas ones though so maybe not too distracting ? On the Rudge each pump of the foot is just a squirt of oil - my TT replica has that and it’s really good system.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 23 Oct 2018 at 21:36
Hi Ian. Yep I reckon anything to keep your hands on the bars longer on the TT course would be a good thing. Pullin's winning speed on the Rudge in 1914 was just a tick under 50 mph, with 80 mph on the flat. On unpaved roads! Hang on tight I reckon.

I've been away from home, but last night I was able to go to my books to look at stuff about these early ohv Douglas racers. It's the usual slightly-mixed-up story.

What seems certain is that the first ohv Douglas was the bike on which Les Bailey set records at Brooklands in December 1912, as outlined above. The spec of this engine is slightly less certain, as is the role that SLB played in its development.  Certainly Granville Bradshaw (of ABC fame) played a role.

In Peter Hartley's 1973 book "Bikes at Brooklands in the Pioneer Years" he gives the Bailey bike a three-throw crank and three con rods. (Think about it: one ordinary piston and rod, one piston with two parallel rods straddling this, all very symmetric...) However I'm not sure about this. Bradshaw did build an ABC racing/aero engine to this pattern, but there's nothing in the contemporary descriptions I can find of the Bailey engine to suggest such a radical crank and rod design. Certainly it did have turned steel cylinders, one-ring cast iron pistons, and overhead valves.

Does anyone know more? Any good photos? Has anything been written?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 24 Oct 2018 at 03:29
Leon,

Presumably you are referencing this account in the December 24, 1912 "Motor Cycling"?

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2018/TMC24Dec12.jpg)

The three-throw crank is mentioned for the 350cc engine. A subsequent 500cc ohv engine is also mentioned. The article does not say if the 350cc was a side-valve or ohv, but Barry M. Jones in his book "Granville Bradshaw, a Flawed Genius?" (Panther Publishing, 2008, ISBN  9780956497574) gives the 350 as ohv. He also credits the three throw crank as being the precursor to the initial fore-aft ABC using the same arrangement. No mention of the 500cc engine is made, and perhaps some of the details for that are being confused with the specifications for the 350, or perhaps Bradshaw had minimal or no involvement with the 500.

Jones does give much more detail about the attempt, that gives credibility to the record being bonafide, even if the exact valve configuration may remain in doubt. I quote from his book, with additional endnotes () gleened from the preceding paragraph:

Quote
"He toyed with a new Douglas horizontal twin to replace the Triumph(1) and soon became acquainted with S.L. (Les) Bailey, the Australian rider, driver and flyer who was the Douglas works rider. They soon became close friends and Bradshaw made several modifications for him in November 1912 creating, in effect, his first ABC horizontal-twin  (60.9mm x 60mm) which developed 13hp at 5,000 rpm. This improved engine included new machined steel barrels, an overhead valve gear and cylinder head modeled on his aero-engine practice. It has steel conrods, one of which was in a y-from off a three throw crankshaft. On December 17th, 1912 Bailey attempted the Class B (under 350cc) flying mile and kilometer records, but the compression ratio was too high for the fuel, so it was back to Bradshaw's works (2) for compression plates to be inserted to reduce it to 6.0:1. He then took the kilometer record at 72.63mph beating that set on a Martin-JAP motorcycle. This followed by the mile, reaching 70.04mph but still with plenty of revs left before he ran out of track! On his second attempt, the carburettor worked loose and on the third an final attempt, a spark plug disintegrated ending his hopes. This unique Douglas-ABS hybrid was never raced again as Bailey left for Australia, though he returned in 1914."

(1) Bradshaw's daily commuter, a 500cc Triumph. Written off in a crash with a landing aeroplane at Brooklands! 
(2) Bradshaw had the only fully equipped workshop on site at Brooklands, according to Jones.

A short way further on Jones writes:

Quote
"Inspired by Bailey's success with the modified engine, Bradshaw designed and built his first ABC motorcycle engine in the winter of 1912/13, primarily as a replacement engine for those existing motorcycle engines fitted in the fore and aft, Douglas fashion, though this was itself developed from J F Barter's 'Fee' of 1905. Bradshaw's new engine was 492cc, 3-1/2hp horizontally opposed 'square' twin (69 x 68mm). Lubrication was by splash system; the engine weighed barely 40lbs."

One wonders if this was the 500cc 'Bailey was developing'? Perhaps if his part was so minor as to just be the inspiration for the new engine (based on his requested alterations and subsequent success with the 350cc), it explains why he so readily abandoned his 'baby' and returned to Australia. Granted oceanic bookings were made well in advance and not something to be postponed, but Bailey seems to have had no further dealings with the 500. So perhaps he was just a consultant and test rider until his departure.

Though departing from the Bailey connection, just a little more on the fascinating comment about the engine being a replacement for Douglas engines from Jones:

Quote
"The new ABC motorcycle engine was revealed to the public in April 1913 and was fitted into a Zenith frame which Freddie Barnes then raced on the Brooklands track. Improvements rapidly followed,starting with pressure-feed oil lubrication system and in May 1913, a modified valve gear.

Due to complications in modifying other maker's frames to accept the fore and aft ABC engines. Bradshaw got both Earnest Humphries at OK Supreme and the Collier brothers at H Collier & Sons ('Matchless') to build special frames for him into which the new engine could be fitted. By June 1913 the ABC engine had reached production status and was soon selling to private owners of Douglas, Edmund, matchless, Zenith and PV (Perry Vale) machines. One such PV was entered in the 1913 London Exeter MCC trial and gained a Gold Award for completing the grueling course."

Certainly some further avenues of investigation there! Not knowing ABC all that well, I thought the initial fore-aft motorcycles were 100% ABC, but it seems at first they were just selling engines. The story does not end there, but SLB is no longer a part of it, so I will start a new topic for the ABC-Douglas connection here:

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7210.msg27377#msg27377

-Doug

[Add link to new post. 23Oct18. -Doug]

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 24 Oct 2018 at 04:07
Leon,

Further to Doug's comments here is some information in The Motor Cycle December 26 1912

cheers

Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 24 Oct 2018 at 04:13
and more in the same issue.....
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 24 Oct 2018 at 07:54
Leon and Doug,

I'm not sure what sparked this reply by Granville Bradshaw in Motor Sport Feb. 1961 but he does say mention the 1912 Les Bailey 350cc OHV engine;

"...We then asked Farnborough if we could try our engine in one of their 'planes but they refused (in writing) on the grounds that " The War Department informs us that there is no military value in the aeroplane." We had taken the only brick-built factory on Brooklands and purchased a few machine tools but we were virtually out of business except for assistance to the many owners of racing cars and motorcycles, who were always wanting pistons eased or cams altered—and I was always keen to help them get records. S. L. Bailey with his Douglas wanted more power, so I designed and made him two new cylinders machined from a steel bar and with overhead valves. He obtained his records immediately. And, with little hope for any aeroplane engine business, I designed a flat-twin A.B.C. motorcycle engine.

I quote from the motor Press at the time: " How many people realise that a 350-c.c. A.B.C. with steel cylinders did 72.6 miles per hour over the flying kilometre in 1912—a record, And, later, " A 500-c.c. A.B.C. was the first machine to put the flying kilo. over the 80 mark." Later still, " A 400-c.c. A.B.C. took the much-coveted hour record in the 500-c.c. class on more than one occasion."

These were all " one-off '' engines, built at a cost that must have been infinitesimal compared with present-day motorcycle racing engines. And in those days there were many more firms in the motorcycle racing game than there are today....."

the full article can be read here;

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/february-1961/25/granville-bradshaw-replies-his-critics

cheers

Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 29 Oct 2018 at 10:20

Thanks Doug and Ian.

There is quite a lot to the story of Bailey and the first Douglas OHV. Certainly none of the four Douglas history books get the story right: all overlook Bailey's first OHV on which he set records in December 1912. In The Best Twin, the photo of "the very first ohv-engined model" Douglas is in fact the late 1913 bike, and the "ohv engine designed with the 1913 racing season in mind" is (I think at the moment) the post-war 4-valve-per-cylinder engine. (Of course the SLB 1912 ohv might be construed as a "Bailey-Bradshaw Special - but there was no doubt Douglas claimed the 70+ mph records for their own!)

I think a Bailey/Douglas chronology is falling into place. The early parts is something like this:

1911 Feb 11, SLB racing in Sydney for the Newcastle MCC

mid-1911 (sometime!) SLB travels to England

1912 May 11, SLB racing a 2 3/4 TT Humber in Birmingham

1912 July 20, SLB racing a 2 3/4 side-valve Douglas at Brooklands (see higher in this thread)

1912 December "last week" (on 5th), SLB testing 2 3/4 OHV Douglas at Brooklands (with Granville Bradshaw parts)

1912 December 16, SLB due to leave for Australia

1912 December 17, SLB record setting at Brooklands on the OHV 350 (so departure delayed). Leaves immediately for Australia.

1913 Febrary 12, SLB in Forbes NSW, returning to Sydney to attempt records. Plans to return to England "for the opening of the racing season"

1913 May 13, SLB record breaking on 2 3/4 Douglas in Melbourne: one hour record

1913 June, SLB record breaking in Brisbane

1913 July 25, SLB leaves Sydney on S.S. Sonoma to UK via USA

1913 September 11, SLB back in England, quite badly injured in motorcycle accident (on the road, I think)

1913 October 11, "New" OHV Douglas entered for BMCRC meeting at Brooklands, ridden by Alfie Alexander.

1914 February 28, Track tests of "new" ohv Douglas, F. G. Ball riding, SLB on crutches and timekeeping.

1914 March 28, SLB racing OHV Douglas at BMCRC meeting at Brooklands - this bike has the "new" Douglas engine, but in single down-tube frame.

That takes us up to the beginning of the war.

But back to the early days... What were Bailey's plans as he left for Australia after the Brooklands records in Dec 1912? I'm 90% certain he travelled as a member of the Douglas staff. (Did he join from Humber, with Walter Moore, after the 1912 TT?) He certainly did a lot of work setting up agencies for Douglas in Australia.

My theory is that he left Douglas with the job - perhaps with more input from Bradshaw, certainly Walter Moore - to build a new Douglas racer, with a view to returning to the UK for the 1913 racing season. However things didn't go to plan and the new OHV Douglas was not ready for the TT, so Bailey stayed on in Australia, racing and spruiking Douglases, and setting up agencies. Just before leaving Australia to return to England in July 1913, SLB told the Sunday Times (Sydney):

"I have had a highly successful time in Australia, both from a business and sporting standpoint, and, needless to say, have thoroughly enjoyed my brief visit to my native land. It has, of course, been a pretty strenuous time, for I have been here, there and everywhere during my flying trip, and have had to crowd record breaking rides on poor tracks, a road race, and couple of hill climbs, and similar competitions, and seeing as much of my own people as I could into the intervals of organising agencies for my firm in England, visiting Sydney, Newcastle, Melbourne and Brisbane."

"What are your intentions regarding your coming visit to England?"

"Well, one thing which is taking me back again is to pay more attention to my steel cylinder engine. Although with my own I did so well, the subsequent machines were hardly so successful, for riders could get no more than 45 miles an hour out of them. I am convinced, however, that it is only in matters of detail that they are at fault, and when I get back, I expect to get 80 miles an hour at Brooklands with my own little 2 3/4 h.p. steel cylinder Douglas."

Someone at Douglas was (unsuccessfully) building new racing engines while SLB was in Australia. No doubt the plan in July 1913 was for SLB to return to England, fix the new bikes, and go record breaking at Brooklands in the final months of 1913. Unfortunately he had a nasty accident immediately after arrival in the UK in Sept 1913 and testing had to be left to others (Alexander and Ball).

Interesting. Can anyone link Bailey to Walter Moore before Douglas? Were they working together on racing bikes - or maybe the Moore 3-speed gearbox - at Humber in 1911-1912?

Cheers

Leon




Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 29 Oct 2018 at 10:23
Here's the insides of the first ABC OHV motor, and described in the press in late 1912. Note the three con rods.

It seems likely that the 1912 DOuglas OHV motor also had a three-throw crank.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 29 Oct 2018 at 22:06
One wonders if this was the 500cc 'Bailey was developing'?

Hi Doug,

Thanks for posting the Motor Cycling article (24 Dec 1912). I hadn't seen this before - my info coming from the rival magazine Motor Cycle.

Motor Cycling says:

"During his visit to England Bailey has employed his spare time in having built a very remarkable 500 cc horizontally opposed twin-cylinder engine with steel pistons and cylinders, and overhead mechanically operated overhead valves... It has been taken up by a very famous record-breaking motor-cyclist, and will probably be manufactured commercially. The design, Bailey informed us, is clean and simple, the whole of the external part of the crank-case being machined."

If we were to remove the words "in having built" and replace them with "in helping out with" I think we get a very good description of the 500cc ABC as discussed elsewhere. The Motor Sport article posted by Ian highlights that Bradshaw had a marvelous workshop at Brooklands, but with little to do but develop new motorcycle/aeroplane engines.

The "record breaking motor-cyclist" would be Jack Emerson, who was one of the Nortons "cracks" in 1912, who moved over to ABC and was the first to set records at 80+ mph on a 500, on 13 Jan 1914.

The ABC did move into commercial manufacture.

The machining of the external case was probably an aircraft thing, were weight was critical.

I've not read elsewhere that Les Bailey contributed to design or development of the ABC, so I suspect the Motor Cycling reporter was a little inaccurate is his description of SLB's role in the 500.

Speaking of not believing everything we read, we should also not believe everything we see. Have you noticed that photo of Bailey on his OHV Douglas the 24/12/1912 Motor Cycling article (better copy attached) shows a different engine to that in the photo that accompanies the 26/12/1912 Motor Cycle article? The Motor Cycle bike - as noted before - has vertical inlet and exhaust manifolds, whereas the Motor Cycling bike has angled inlets (at least). Both motors appear to have machined cylinders (with fins perpendicular to the bores).

I fancy the Motor Cycling photo shows the actual bike.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 31 Oct 2018 at 22:39

From the above, there were at least two iterations of the OHV Douglas by the time Les Bailey left for his trip to Australia in late December 1912.  The 24/12/1912 Motor Cycling photo shows angled manifolds for inlet/exhaust, but from what I can see in the photo this cylinder/head configuration is different from the "1914 TT" ohv motor.

Here's a photo of F. G. Ball testing the 1914 TT model at Brooklands in February 1914. Note the distinctive large-diameter exhaust exiting the front head forward and to the left side of the machine. SLB was on crutches but armed with the stopwatch.

This is likely the machine that was developed at Douglas while SLB was in Australia Dec-1912 to Aug-1913, about which SLB said to an Australian journalist in July 1913 "riders could get no more than 45 miles an hour out of them".

The frame on this bike has twin front down tubes and a single rail under the engine. I say "TT model" because of the short wheelbase and spring front fork. Bailey's 1914 Brooklands racer (see higher up in the thread) used the same type of motor, housed in a single-down-tube long-wheelbase frame with rigid fork.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 01 Nov 2018 at 06:23
Great Research Leon,

I was just starting to think this was all getting complicated and there was the need for some sort of timeline of Les's activities and you started one!  :D

You have posed lots of questions and here is hopefully a small start in answering one of them;

  - "When did bailey arrive in UK for the first time?"

 Looks like it is 2nd September 1911 on the Otway, arriving in London. He lists his occupation as "Motorist" and travelled 3rd class.

I thank my sister for finding this information for me some item ago when I did a little bit of research into S.L. Bailey (...when I seemed to have more spare time than I do now....).

cheers

Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 01 Nov 2018 at 06:44
It appears Bailey returned to Australia with Zenith exponent Percy Weatherilt on December 19th 1912. Some details of Percy "Buck" Weatherilt's exploits are described here;

https://aussiesappers.wordpress.com/the-men-2/172-weatherilt-percy-buck/

Included in the text is this interesting comment;

"....Bailey had just broken the speed record on a Douglas Motorcycle, at over 70 mph , a feat thought impossible. The two men Bailey and Percy Buck Weatherilt had become close friends and left England together to race motorcycles in Australia bringing with them the new Douglas motorcycles that had captured the imagination of riders all over the world....."


-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 01 Nov 2018 at 07:09
Weatherilt's first hillclimb ride in Sydney is described in the Sunday Times 13th July 1913 - with a demonstration ride by Bailey.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 01 Nov 2018 at 07:16
Thanks Ian: nice to nail the date of SLB's first arrival in London to 2 Sept 1911.

SLB's recollections of dates are just a little fuzzy, as he told the Australian press in Feb 1913: "It is about 18 months since I went away," he said, "being determined to acquire the best experience I could of motor-cycling in what seemed to be the best place to do so — England. I went first to the Humber Company of Coventry, and spent a few months there, but afterwards joined the staff of Douglas Bros., with whom I have been ever since."

The Aston race victories - Humber mounted - were in May 1912, so presumably SLB joined Douglas shortly after that. Certainly before July 1912 when he was racing a Douglas at Brooklands.

By the way, although Weatherlit was known for racing Zeniths, it was made clear in the press that he was to ride a Douglas in Australia. We've talked elsewhere on the forum about Australian rider Meller and his success on Douglases in this period. It seems likely his bike was one of the three that came out with Bailey and Weatherilt. The bikes were side valve 2 3/4s.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 01 Nov 2018 at 11:47
I think we can list Saturday June 1, 1912 as the date of Bailey's first outing on a racing Douglas, when he rode in the All Comers' One Hour Race at the 4th BMCRC Meeting at Brooklands. According to the Motor Cycle on 6 June 1912:

"Bailey, who made a fine showing on the Douglas, is an Australian, who has been only six months in England. He rode W. Douglas's competition machine, whose engine buzzed like that of an aeroplane the whole time and never faltered once."

Bailey covered nearly 56 1/2 miles in the hour (try this on your TS sometime) and was beaten home by only G. E. Stanley on the 499cc Singer (arguably the best-performing 500 of the era at Brooklands), who covered just under 61 miles.

In the same issue, Bailey was listed as an entrant for the 1912 Junior TT on a Humber. A week later, it was announced he would be riding a 350 Douglas not only in the Junior, but in the Senior as well. In the lead up to the TT, the Motor Cycle reported:

"...Kickham and Bailey have actually had the impudence to challenge the big machines in the Senior event. There is a tone of healthy confidence about this policy, and the Australian, Bailey, is undoubtedly a terror."

A terror eh!? Let's call him a Douglas man from 1 June 1912.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 01 Nov 2018 at 23:52
Leon,
Looks like Les might have been with the Colmore Motor Cycle Depot. at Birmingham between his tenure with Humber and Douglas as they appear to be the entrant for his early forays on a Douglas. When he returned to Australia in the mid 1920's and in the process of re-establishing himself into the Australian scene, the press printed this (self-promotion related?) bio. of his successes and ventures so far, including SLB's short stint with Colmore Depot before joining Douglas.

-ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 02 Nov 2018 at 06:53
Hi Ian,

Yes both Kickham and Bailey were linked to Colmore, but since both were based in Bristol at the time I'd say their relationship to Colmore was "nominal".

My major interest in Bailey is trying to understand his role in designing and developing racing motorcycles for Douglas. So far I can come up with no real evidence that, pre WW1, he designed the racing engines, although it seems likely that he was the key to developing them into competitive race machinery.

I guess we should credit Walter Moore with the design of the 1914 TT Douglases? Particularly since SLB was absent from the country in the 9 months during which they were built...

Here's Elwell on his 1914 Junior Douglas. A very handsome machine.

I believe that the two Douglases entered in the 1914 Senior TT were "standard" 3 1/2 h.p. side-valve models. Can anyone confirm?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 02 Nov 2018 at 22:40
I guess we should credit Walter Moore with the design of the 1914 TT Douglases? Particularly since SLB was absent from the country in the 9 months during which they were built...

No, not Walter Moore either - re-reading I see he came over to Douglas after the 1913 TT (not 1912 as I was thinking), and by then the "new" OHV Douglas would have been either built or well underway. Mmm...

Clew (and his many followers) has the first outing of the "new" ohv Douglas at the Weston-super-Mare speed trials in October 1913, in the hands of Alfie Alexander. Possible - SLB was probably still recovering from his September crash - by funny that The Motor Cycle report of this event makes no mention of such an interesting bike taking part.

The speed trials at Weston-super-Mare were on the beach, only 20 miles from Bristol, so were a "home event" for the Bristol MCC and Douglas.

In my edition of The Best Twin, figure 14 is "The very first ohv-engined model, as ridden by Alfie Alexander at Weston-super-mare." Of course the bike in the photo (below) is not "the very first ohv", and the venue of the photo looks to be a race track of some kind, not the beach.

What colour is the bike? Red? It's said that Bolton's 1914 Junior TT bike was red, although it also had twin carburettors and other unusual features.

And the unusual number plate? Was AE-P2 a Douglas trade plate? Or?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 03 Nov 2018 at 10:08
Thanks to Howard who sent me a one-page article in Motor Cycling, 7 April 1914, describing the ohv racing Douglases.

The drawings in the article show a couple of variants of the ohv layout.

The carburettor shown is the two-barrel item used by BSA in the period, with an adjustable main jet.

S.L. Bailey was said to be "busy preparing the machines for the Tourist Trophy races".

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 03 Nov 2018 at 22:38
Fantastic pictures Howard and Leon!

In The Motor Cycle 9th October in the report on the speed trials at Weston-Super-Mare there is a grainy picture of Alexander on his 2 3/4hp Douglas. It does not look like the OHV machine to me, but given the quality of the picture it is hard to tell. It is possible that Alexander had more than one machine at the speed trials but as you say Leon, you would think the press would have commented on such a machine. Those long exhaust pipes look more side valve Douglas than OHV? The first report I have found so far that specifically links Alexander to an OHV Douglas is in The Motor Cycle Oct. 23rd where he rode it at Brooklands. There is also a grainy picture of the OHV Douglas at this meet.

The picture that Leon posted earlier of Alexander on the OHV machine looks like it might be taken at Douglas factory at Kingswood near their sports ground?? Just a long shot but there does appear to be factory buildings in the distance that are similar to the ones at Kingswood?
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 05 Nov 2018 at 20:20

Thanks Ian.

The 23 Oct reference to Alexander at Brooklands was the earliest reference I could confirm for the "new ohv Douglas", so this is the one I put in my Bailey chronology. But, as usual, if we persevere we get a little closer to the "facts"!

Although the Motor Cycle report of the Weston-super-Mare speed trials doesn't describe Alexander's ohv Douglas, it can just be made out in the grainy photos. One of the features was a very small rear belt rim - the side-valve rim, even for racing, was much larger.

But over at Motor Cycling, 7th Oct 1913, they make a big fuss over Alexander's beach racer. Yes, it was ohv. But in a HUGE surprise, the motor looks different from both Bailey's 1912 Douglas/Bradshaw racer and the later 1914 TT bikes.

Both exhausts exit on the right side of the machine (so yet another variation on the cylinder heads), but it's the timing chest that is the big surprise. Most of the early ohv racers look to have timing chests based on the side valve, but on the Alexander Weston-super-Mare bike the push rods are very close together, and there is a boss on the timing cover that is certainly well to the rear of the centreline, unlike the usual timing chest where the bosses are on the centreline.

Was this engine the one developed while Bailey was in Australia? The one Bailey said would only do 45 mph?

The Motor Cycling photo comes from Howard's Flickr account  https://www.flickr.com/photos/flattank_motorcycles/9317143109/ Thanks to Howard for confirming the date as 7 October 1913.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 05 Nov 2018 at 20:38
The Weston-super-Mare report, from Motor Cycling 7 Oct 1913:

"A very interesting machine was the new 2 3/4 h.p. overhead-valve Douglas racer, which was ridden by A. Alexander. The inlet and exhaust pipes are of very large diameter, the valves themselves being carried in the heads. It will be remembered that we gave particulars in July last. The valves are operated by neat adjustable tappets, the upper ends of which fit into cupped rocker arms. The crankcase release lubricates the overhead valve gear by blowing on to it. Lubrication is by drip feed to both cylinder walls. The radiating flanges are very deep and the frame is slightly longer than the standard 2 3/4 h.p. models. The machine did very well in its first heats, but the gear could not be changed in the final, and in the end a broken chain put Alexander out of the running."
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 05 Nov 2018 at 21:04
Three overhead-valve variants pre WW1. Bailey's December 1912, Alexander's October 1913 and one of the 1914 TT bikes from April 1914.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 07 Nov 2018 at 03:21

As I mentioned earlier, arguably the most interesting of the early OHV Douglas racers was the four-valve-per-aluminium-cylinder machine that appeared at the Weston-super-Mare in September 1919. The Motor Cycle, 4 September 1919, described it thus:

"A new racing Douglas, with F. G. Ball as the rider, had an engine with aluminium cylinders and four valves in each head - two inlet and two exhaust - each pair being operated by a single overhead rocker and oblique tappet rod from the timing case. The machine had evidently not been tuned to its fullest pitch, according to the results gained in the events."

Les Bailey rode a 1914-TT-style machine at this event, and defeated Ball in all events. The eight-valve machine was short-lived, perhaps because of its rather "veteran" cylinder/head design, where the ports were cast integral with the aluminium cylinder and the valves (presumably) dropped in from the top together with their seats and springs. The seal between the parts must have been difficult with the different expansion between the aluminium and iron/steel.

There is a photo of the eight-valve engine in Clew (incorrectly dated as 1913 in my 1st edition), but I can find no description of it in the various Douglas books I have. Is the Clew photo period, or did the engine survive? Indeed have any of these early OHV Douglas engines survived?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 07 Nov 2018 at 05:04
Leon,
Well I was wrong with the identification of Alexander’s OHV Douglas at the 1913 Weston-super-Mare speed trials – it was indeed the first outing of the Douglas factory version of an  OHV 2 3/4HP (as opposed to the Bailey / Bradshaw version) – I guess the moral is don’t believe what you (don’t) read in the press! Great research Leon, but I still wonder why it wasn’t reported in The Motor Cycle ?

here is another picture of the event;

“4th October 1913: At the Bristol Motorcycle Club Speed Trials at Weston-super-Mare, A H Alexander, riding a Douglas, gets off to a fine start in the first heat of the first event”

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/at-the-bristol-motorcycle-club-speed-trials-at-weston-super-news-photo/3308629


Of course Getty images have managed to put their watermark right where we want to look and the price of the image is way out of my range….

(Apologies for the next two picture from the same source, as I’m a little off topic. They are not of OHV bikes nor about Les Bailey but might be of interest to Douglas enthusiasts;
“4th October 1913: H Douglas at the wheel of the new Douglas Cycle Car, at the Bristol Motor Car Club speed trials, Weston-Super-Mare.”

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/douglas-at-the-wheel-of-the-new-douglas-cycle-car-at-the-news-photo/3252808

“4th October 1913: W Douglas at the wheel of the new Douglas cycle car, at the Bristol Motor Car Club speed trials, Western Super Mare.”

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/douglas-at-the-wheel-of-the-new-douglas-cycle-car-at-the-news-photo/3252863
)
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 07 Nov 2018 at 05:12
 Here are a couple of pictures of Bailey and Equipe Douglas at Le Man's in 1912 before his OHV forays with Bradshaw. These are from the French Gallica website

"7-9-12, Le Mans, coupe internationale des motocyclettes, equipe Douglas"

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b69212680 (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b69212680)

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6921260p (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6921260p)



[Update links. 11Nov18, Doug, Site Moderator]
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 07 Nov 2018 at 05:22
This post maybe jumping ahead a little from Leon's thread and maybe slightly off topic - (Sorry Leon...) ..but also on the Gallica website are a few nice pictures of Douglas OHV racing machines that partly catalogues their development over the period 1920 to 1925. As the original post by Peter was asking for information regarding Bailey's involvement with the development of the RA these may at least show some of the incremental development of the racing OHV models up to the time Bailey returned to Australia for good.

1920
Kickham:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530516117

Alexander:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9034111h
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53051625f
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9034137r

Isodi:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530515915


Alexander, Isodi, Kickham:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53051634d

1921
Emmerson:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530680537
Millaud:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530640850
Kickham:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53068052s
Harveyson:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53068051b
Dixon:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53068056k
Alexander:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53068059x

1922
Pullin:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53094050f
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53094447p

1923
Alec Bennett:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53110056j
Jim Whalley:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53110047k
Whalley, Dixon, Anstice, Bennett:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531100983

1924
Judd:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53132842p

1925
Anstice:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53150973p
Barker:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531509833
Whalley:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531509996
Kuhn:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53150971s
Dixon:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531510581
Hatton:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531509816

-Ian



[Update links. 11Nov18, Doug, Site Moderator]
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 07 Nov 2018 at 22:57
Thanks Doug for fixing up my dud links where i cut and pasted them incorrectly :-)

cheers

ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 09 Nov 2018 at 00:32

You've got to love Gallica! (My favourite items are the photos taken by Jules Beau https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Jules_Beau?uselang=en )

Plenty of lovely detail of the "Sports Model" Douglas, but let me step back a year to 1919 and have a look at where the sports model came from. Bailey was there, but as usual (so far) I'm not sure of the role he played.

As we've detailed there were new OHV racing Douglases in 1912, 1913, 1914 and 1919, all quite different. Bailey was involved with all of them. A surprise then to find yet another OHV design for 1920. This was "more or less" the Sports Model (announced in October 1920), but the earlier racing models first appeared at Brooklands in May in the lead up to the TT in June 1920.

The early versions had belt final drive, front brake acting on the wheel rim, rear wheel brake on the belt rim. Engine-wise, the aluminium rocker oil boxes were to come later. There were a number of variants of the frame, but they all had twin rails underneath the engine, and the seat tube split to either side of the rear cylinder. The mounting for the rear axle had a number of styles, as did the twin seat tubes.

Here's Alexander's 1920 TT bike. In the race he had repeated belt trouble, so it's hardly surprising that when Bailey went out record-breaking at Brooklands in August 1920 his bike had chain final drive.

And what of Bailey's rear brake? Look like a precursor to the S1/RA "discs" that were to follow. Bailey filed a patent for the S1-style disc in 1921.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 09 Nov 2018 at 00:54
Adding in some war-time and post-war detail:

1911 Feb 11, SLB racing in Sydney for the Newcastle MCC

1911 Spetember 2 SLB, "motorist", arrrives in London on the Otway, 3rd class

1912 May 11, SLB racing a 2 3/4 TT Humber in Birmingham

1912 June 1, SLB rides W. Douglas's competition machine at Brooklands in All Comers' One Hour Race: 56 miles, 755 yards

1912 Bailey rides a Douglas in the TT.

1912 July 20, SLB racing a 2 3/4 side-valve Douglas at Brooklands (see higher in this thread)

1912 December "last week" (on 5th), SLB testing 2 3/4 OHV Douglas at Brooklands (with Granville Bradshaw parts)

1912 December 16, SLB due to leave for Australia

1912 December 17, SLB record setting at Brooklands on the OHV 350 (so departure delayed).

1912 December 19, leaves for Australia with Weatherilt.

1913 February 12, SLB in Forbes NSW, returning to Sydney to attempt records. Plans to return to England "for the opening of the racing season"

1913 May 13, SLB record breaking on 2 3/4 Douglas in Melbourne: one hour record

1913 June, SLB record breaking in Brisbane

1913 July 25, SLB leaves Sydney on S.S. Sonoma to UK via USA

1913 September 11, SLB back in England, quite badly injured in motorcycle accident (on the road, I think)

1913 October 4, Debut of "new" (narrow pushrod) OHV Douglas at Weston-super-Mare, Alexander riding

1913 October 11, "New" OHV Douglas entered for BMCRC meeting at Brooklands, ridden by Alfie Alexander.

1914 February 28, Track tests of "new" ohv Douglas (1914 TT model), F. G. Ball riding, SLB on crutches and timekeeping.

1914 March 28, SLB racing OHV Douglas at BMCRC meeting at Brooklands - 1914-TT-style Douglas engine, but in single down-tube frame

1914 September 22, SLB sets Class F (350 sidecar) records at Brooklands

1915 December 15, SLB "now holding an important position with Messrs. Douglas Bros." marries Cyril Pullin's sister

1917 May 3, SLB "Douglas", "well-known motorcyclist", attends Cyril Pullin's wedding

1917 September 20, SLB conducts a tour of the Douglas Works for "The Motor Cycle". Hints, but "not at liberty to divulge details"

1918 April 4, SLB and W.W. Douglas return from France, promoting 4hp Douglas for French army

1919 May 8, SLB injures hand in car accident in Bath at Easter

1919 August 29, Weston-super-Mare: F.G. Ball debuts 8-valve aluminium-cylinder Douglas racer - beaten by SLB on 1914-TT-style machine

1920 May 28, Tudor Thompson at Brooklands on 350 Douglas (presumably with "Sports" style motor)

1920 June, Douglas TT machines have "Sports" style motor with belt drive; brakes on rim at front, on belt rim at rear

1920 August 17 SLB beats flying-5-mile record at 66.18 mph: "Sports" type motor, chain drive, with precursor to RA/S1 disc brake at rear

1920 August 21, SLB sails for Australia with "a new 2 3/4 h.p. chain driven model"

1920 October 15, Back in Sydney for "thee-weeks' trip"

1920 October 28, Sports Model announced in The Motor Cycle with SLB-designed disc front brake

1921 January 13, SLB "on his way back from the Antipodes"

1921 July 20, SLB applies for disc brake patent (granted as GB187687, 1922)
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 09 Nov 2018 at 01:41
Here is another shot of Bailey's OHV racing machine AD5724 (see picture from Clew's "The Best twin" in Doug's post above) at Brooklands circa 1919 with possibly his wife Kate astride it?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Photo-A135-Female-competitor-Douglas-motorcycle-scratch-race-Brooklands-1920/123467406123?hash=item1cbf3b1b2b:g:WnoAAOSwiBJaPW4I:rk:1:pf:0
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 09 Nov 2018 at 02:00

Douglas workshop, Brooklands. Bailey with a racing OHV model. Captioned 1919. (“The Best Twin”)

Date not specified, but in 1919 or 1920, Bailey became Works manager. A riding accident had ended his racing career. In conjunction with chief designer Walter Moore and a draughtsman named Curtis, set to work designing the first catalog OHV machines, the 3-1/2hp and 6hp Sports, which was revealed in a November 2, 1920 issue of Motor Cycling for the 1921 season. This was not much more than an adaptation of the previous two seasons racing models. (“The Best Twin”)


Hi Ian,

Attractive photo, but certainly not 1919, despite what Clew might say. Given chain drive, oil boxes on the rockers, and dummy-rim-brake on the front wheel, I'd date the photo to July-Sept 1920 at Brooklands, where they held ""TT style" events for bikes in road trim.

For the record, Bailey's racing career did not end in 1920 (although he wound back, he raced at Brooklands as late as November 1921), and the Sports Models had nothing in common with the machines raced in 1919. In fact the development from "works racer" to production models seems to have occurred ove a period of less than six months.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 09 Nov 2018 at 02:08
As Leon states above Les departed UK on 21st August 1920 with his wife and young daughter but he returned alone on the Orvieto which arrived in London on 5th Feb 1921 without him, as he disembarked at Toulon. His occupation is listed as Works Manager. Kate and Dinah returned via Canada after their stay in Australia. Thanks again to my sister for finding this information - she is much better at genealogical research than I am!
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 09 Nov 2018 at 02:14
Junior Open Motor Cycle Handicap at Brooklands, 14 August 1920

"The event was very well supported, and of the machines which were present at the start, the most interesting and novel was S. L. Bailey's Douglas, which he has entered for the Grand Prix race at Le Mans on August 28th. It was in full touring trim, and had a ribbed aluminium casing containing oil to lubricate the overhead valve rockers, and a front rim brake."

If the photo of the lovely lady on the Douglas is British, I'd guess Brooklands 14 August 1920, or if French, the Grand Prix race at Le Mans on 28 August 1920.

A popular route to Australia was overland through France to Marsailles, then pick up the steamer through the Suez.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 09 Nov 2018 at 02:26
Yes I agree Leon, The bike in the picture appears to be from a later period than stated in Clew's book, I had not manged to look up a more accurate date so put "circa" on the date :-)  (Lunch times at work are way too short!). I have  also found it difficult to find evidence of Bailey's actual input into the earlier Douglas OHV designs and as a result started looking at Walter Moore's work at Douglas for clues. I have not found much so far but did find the starting point that precipitated his being employed by them - the 3 speed gearbox patent.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 12 Nov 2018 at 11:26

The Grand Prix at Le Mans on 28 August 1920 was written up in the Motor Cycle on 2 September. Bailey was not there. There were three Douglases entered, in the hands of Alexander, Kickham and Doisi. (Was Doisi riding the bike that Bailey would have been riding were he not on the boat on his way to Australia?) Alexander was extremely fast: a nail in his tyre delayed his start by about three minutes, but he was leading after two 10-mile laps. After 16 laps his lead was 20 minutes! Alas he stripped second gear "probably owing to the fact that these machines have no clutch", and when he stalled at one of the hairpins and accepted a push to get going again, he was disqualified.

No clutch eh? Interesting. If you have a look at the photos of the event on Gallica (the National Library of France website), for example Kickham on his bike https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530516117 , you can see that these machines had a Bailey-designed shock absorber built into the flywheel, but no clutch on either the flywheel or the gearbox. Bailey signed the patent application for the shock absorber on 21 August 1920, the day he sailed for Australia.

Did these bike have a sump under the engine? If not a sump, then what?

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 12 Nov 2018 at 11:34

Here's the drawing from Bailey's transmission shock absorber patent, GB172093, granted in November 1921. From the outside, the flywheel looks to house a clutch, but doesn't.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 12 Nov 2018 at 20:26
Did these bike have a sump under the engine? If not a sump, then what?

The rider's shoe, behind the gear-change mechanism!

The alloy wick lubricators on the rocker spindles were also a Bailey design. The patent was GB187502 issued in 1922.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 13 Nov 2018 at 03:40
Great work Leon!

I have been re-reading The Best Twin and came across a list of patents in Appendix 1 (pg 229 - 238 in ed. 2). There appear to be 49 (?) that Bailey's name are on and a lot are related to the RA model.

As we know through the threads on this forum and NCR, Doug has done an amazing amount of research in this area and noted to me in a PM that Bailey's first patent with Douglas was lodged on 13th May 1918 with W. Douglas, no. GB 126161 and that Bailey even neglected to put Douglas Motor's as an applicant on some of the later ones! Bailey was quite prolific until he left for Australia on 16th Jan 1925 with Catherine, Dinah and Ian, (his occupation simply listed as "Engineer") , His last patent with Douglas appears to have been lodged 24th September 1924 relating to RA pistons.

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 13 Nov 2018 at 23:20
Here is a chronological list of patents I found on Espacenet  for Stephen Leslie Bailey (and others). This includes some German, French and US patents so the list is longer than that shown in The Best Twin. Hopefully i have captured them all against date of application correctly. Please let me know if you find any errors and omissions and I will edit the list.

Date of             Title                                                                                  Publication         Publication
Application                                                                                             number                date

13-May-18   Improvements in the Manufacture of Motor-cycle Frames.   GB126161 (A)   8/05/1919
22-May-18   Improvements in or relating to Power-transmission Clutches.   GB127099 (A)   22/05/1919
13-Jul-18           Improvements in or relating to Cooling Devices for the
                        Pistons of Internal-combustion Engines.                           GB127757 (A)   12/06/1919
13-Jul-18           Improvements in or relating to Valve-operating Mechanism
                        for Internal-combustion Engines and the like.                   GB127146 (A)   29/05/1919
13-Jul-18           Improvements in or relating to Sight-feed Lubricators.           GB129785 (A)   14/07/1919
4-Mar-19           Power-transmission clutch                                                   US1371542 (A)   15/03/1921
26-Mar-19           Improvements in and connected with the lubrication of
                        pistons                                                                           GB138478 (A)   12/02/1920
22-May-19   Schmierung fuer Kolbenbolzen                                           DE334127 (C)   10/03/1921
12-May-19   Valve-operating mechanism for internal-combustion engines   US1399941 (A)   13/12/1921
12-May-19   Sight-feed lubricator                                                           US1346942 (A)   20/07/1920
27-Mar-20           Improvements in or relating to lubricating pumps for
                        internal combustion engines                                           GB160364 (A)   24/03/1921
29-Mar-20     Improvements in or relating to lubrication indicators and
                        regulators for internal combustion engines                           GB160365 (A)   24/03/1921
2-Jun-20           Lubrication of pistons                                                           US1437585 (A)   5/12/1922
23-Aug-20           Improvements in or relating to power-transmission clutches   GB170729 (A)   3/11/1921
23-Aug-20           Improvements in or relating to valve controlling and
                        operating mechanism for internal combustion engines           GB173016 (A)   23/12/1921
26-Aug-20           Improvements in or relating to the lubricating of the valve
                        mechanism of internal combustion engines                           GB173270 (A)   28/12/1921
26-Aug-20         Improvements in or relating to cycles and the like           GB173269 (A)   28/12/1921
26-Aug-20      Improvements in or relating to the cylinders of internal
                        combustion engines                                                           GB174968 (A)   26/01/1922
26-Aug-20           Improvements in or relating to internal combustion engines   GB172093 (A)   28/11/1921
17-Jun-21           Improvements in pistons for internal-combustion engines   GB187281 (A)   17/10/1922
20-Jul-21           Improvements in or relating to brakes for cycles and like
                        vehicles                                                                           GB187687 (A)   20/10/1922
11-Nov-21           Improvements in fastening and coupling dynamo-electric
                        machines to internal combustion engines                           GB196010 (A)   11/04/1923
16-Nov-21           Improvements in saddles for use on motor cycles and the
                        like                                                                                   GB192219 (A)   1/02/1923
19-Nov-21           Improved means for clamping or anchoring single or
                        multiple strand cables                                                           GB193923 (A)   8/03/1923
10-Dec-21      Improvements in or relating to the lubrication of the valve
                        mechanism of internal combustion engines                           GB187502 (A)   26/10/1922
24-Jun-22           Improvements in the induction systems of internal
                        combustion engines                                                           GB201715 (A)   9/08/1923
8-Jul-22           Improvements in pillion seats for use on cycles, motor
                        cycles or the like vehicles                                                   GB203126 (A)   6/09/1923
8-Jul-22           Kolben, insbesondere fuer Motoren mit innerer Verbrennung   DE390053 (C)   16/02/1924
18-Sep-22           Perfectionnements apportés aux pistons pour moteurs
                        à combustion interne                                                   FR556216 (A)   13/07/1923
19-Sep-22           Saddle                                                                           US1502975 (A)   29/07/1924
19-Oct-22           Improvements in friction transmission clutches                   GB205680 (A)   25/10/1923
7-Dec-22           Improvements in the construction and mounting of valve
                        stem guides                                                                   GB210235 (A)   31/01/1924
16-Mar-23           Improvements in change speed gear operating mechanism   GB213107 (A)   27/03/1924
16-Mar-23           Improvements in shackles preferably for use with spring
                        forks for cycles and the like                                                   GB207744 (A)   6/12/1923
16-Mar-23           Improvements in filler caps for liquid containers and the like   GB209641 (A)   17/01/1924
16-Mar-23     Improvements in motor cycles                                           GB211023 (A)   14/02/1924
17-Mar-23           Improvements in and relating to the steering columns of
                        motor cycles or like vehicles                                           GB216259 (A)   29/05/1924
17-Mar-23           Improvements in shock absorbing devices                           GB216258 (A)   29/05/1924
17-Mar-23           Improvements in shock absorbing mechanism                   GB209643 (A)   17/01/1924
17-Mar-23           Improvements in actuating mechanism for change speed
                        gears                                                                           GB209336 (A)   10/01/1924
17-Mar-23      Improvements in crankcases for flat twin-cylinder internal
                        combustion engines                                                           GB212425 (A)   13/03/1924
17-Mar-23           Improvements in gear boxes for change speed gear
                        mechanism                                                                   GB211024 (A)   14/02/1924
26-Mar-23           Improvements in or relating to brake mechanism                   GB217994 (A)   26/06/1924
27-Mar-23           Improvements in saddles for use on cycles, motor cycles
                        and the like                                                                   GB205025 (A)   11/10/1923
11-May-23   Improvements relating to the pistons of internal combustion
                        engines and the like                                                           GB215957 (A)   22/05/1924
11-May-23   Improvements in knee grips for use on motor-cycles           GB201117 (A)   26/07/1923
22-May-23   Improvements in fuel tanks for use on motor vehicles           GB202931 (A)   30/08/1923
5-Jun-23           Improvements in sidecars for use with motor cycles           GB217754 (A)   26/06/1924
30-Jan-24           Improvements in the construction and mounting of valve
                        stem guides                                                                   GB229838 (A)   5/03/1925
16-Jun-24           Improvements in oil pumps                                                   GB234299 (A)   28/05/1925
24-Sep-24           Improvements in pistons for fluid pressure engines           GB244829 (A)   24/12/1925
13-Oct-24           Improvements in transmission shock absorbers                   GB242413 (A)   12/11/1925
13-Oct-24           Improvements in chain guards for motor cycles                   GB242054 (A)   5/11/1925
25-Oct-24           Improvements in or relating to mechanical starting devices
                        for internal combustion engines                                           GB244559 (A)   24/12/1925
25-Oct-24           Improvements in internal combustion engines                   GB244558 (A)   24/12/1925
25-Oct-24           Improvements in or relating to motor cycle saddles           GB241714 (A)   29/10/1925
25-Oct-24           Improvements in stationary internal combustion engines   GB240662 (A)   8/10/1925
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 14 Nov 2018 at 05:35
Hi Ian,

Yes there is a gaggle of SLB patents.

One thing I've found interesting is that there are quite a number of "Sports Model" patents (several of them filed on the day SLB left for Australia in August 1920). The cush drive in the flywheels of the 1920 race bikes, the box rocker shaft oilers (I note an earlier patent than the one above - that didn't mention wicks - dated 21 Aug 1920), clutch, front disc brake, combined rear brake and cush drive, and so on. Based on the patent record, you'd have to go with "Bailey designed the Sports Model" or at least "most of the innovations on the Sports Model were Bailey designs".

Here's one of the "August 21" patents that didn't make it to the production models. It was was for an aluminium cylinder head, made by inserting a pre-made iron skeleton (for the "skull", valve seats, spark plug boss and optionally the rocker stanchions) into the pattern and casting aluminium fins etc. around it. (I think Doug once told us that this is how DT heads are made, albeit not using aluminium?)

Anyway, this appeared in The Motor Cycle 22 July 1920:
"There were two interesting Douglases entered for the Class C ten miles scratch race [at Brooklands] for motor bicycles up to 500 c.c., both of them had overhead inlet [sic] valves. Of these, Bailey's mount had cast iron cylinder heads, while Thorpe's engine had aluminium cylinder heads."

A cunning plan, but I don't know how many Douglas racers went on to use aluminium heads?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 19 Nov 2018 at 20:50

Was Les Bailey known as "Bill" around the Douglas factory?

Writing in "Racing Reminiscences" about the 1923 sidecar TT and the rapid build of the famous banking sidecar, Fred Dixon refers to SLB as "Bill Bailey", no doubt a reference to the famous song "Won't you come home Bill Bailey?"

It's not a typo, because the index entry that points to the page is for "Bailey, S.L.", and editor Geoff Davison was a contemporary of Dixon, Bailey et al. so would have been in on the joke.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 20 Nov 2018 at 20:51
A cunning plan, but I don't know how many Douglas racers went on to use aluminium heads?

The 1921 TT Douglases used the Bailey aluminium cylinder head, and an oil sump. Not as elegant as the RA sump, but a sump none-the-less. (Well, technically an oil tank under the motor, rather than a true sump.)

I hadn't realised that the 1921 TT bikes also used a four-speed gearbox, changed with a gate.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 22 Nov 2018 at 08:39

There were lots of "RA" features that appeared during the development of the Sports models - particularly the racing versions. The "RA" tank fillers (a Bailey design) appeared on the 1921 TT bikes, and at Brooklands in 1922, Eve's Sports model had twin carburettors and an airbox, predating the 1923 RA design.

I had thought that Freddy Dixon was involved in developing twin carburettors and airboxes for Douglas racers, as his Brooklands v-twin Harley Davidson was so equipped, but 1922 was before Dixon's influence at Douglas?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 25 Nov 2018 at 00:13

Les Bailey and the boys at the 1921 TT. The reserve bike on the right, with the racing number A, appears to be a three speeder, with the vertical gear change rod and tram handle on the top bar. Other variations in the mix of centre and rear-axle stands.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 25 Nov 2018 at 00:26

Emerson's Douglas for the 1921 Senior TT, PB 4337, is not one of the four bikes in the photo above. No four-speed gearbox, no sump. Of course it could have been a practice bike. The photo comes from the Keig Collection.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 25 Nov 2018 at 04:12
The Motor Cycle, 9 June 1921:
"T.T. Douglas mounts will have a four-speed gear box for the race though much of the practice work has been carried out with the three-speed box. The new change speed lever works in a gate bolted to the timing gear cover..."

So the photo of Emerson above shows PB 4337 in "practice trim" at the 1921 TT, with the 3 speed gear box. One of the Gallica photos ( https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530680537 see page 1 of this thread) shows Emerson on PB 4337 in Le Mans, France, on 22 July 1921 (just a few weeks after the TT), and in this photo the bike is wearing its four-speed gearbox and gate change. In the close-up you can see the horizontal gate to the rear of the magneto (just "touching" Emerson's sporty socks), and the lever with its ball just under the tank rail.

Perhaps we'd see the sump if the photo was from the other side?

I wonder if the team changed the spec of the bike, or just switched the number plates to the "real" racer? I suspect the latter.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 25 Nov 2018 at 13:39
By the time Emerson reached LeMans, PB 4337 (if it is the same machine) had also acquired drop handlebars. Let us hope he had changed his socks as well!

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 26 Nov 2018 at 10:54

But they're very nice socks!

I'm not sure what was going on in 1922. Perhaps the effort of getting Pullin exceed 100mph at Brooklands (March 1922) consumed all of the racing budget because there was no Douglas Motors Ltd entry at the 1922 TT in June; no Douglas team. The small number of Douglases that competed were private entries. Believe it or not, Alfie Alexander rode the same bike that he had ridden in the GP in France in 1920 (see the Gallica photos), complete with rim front brake, visible in the attached photo taken during the Senior TT. I suppose he owned it himself? Alfie was one of the twin carburettor brigade, using twin B&Bs in practice, and apparently twin AMACs in the race. Carburetion and handling were common problems amongst the Douglas brigade, perhaps because of the concentration of effort at Brooklands. According to the Motor CYcle, "Misfiring appeared to be the bane of Pullin's existence; the raw morning air apparently did not suit the constitution of the Douglas machines, and the flaming blow-back through their carburetters was a sight to behold."

Poor old Cyril even got a bad deal from the press: he was announced as third place getter in the Junior race, but the following week they had to apologise and admit that his engine expired on the last lap, while lying third.

Leon

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 26 Nov 2018 at 16:54
According to Jeff Clew in "The Best Twin" Freddie Dixon joined Cyril Pullin at Hanham Road in 1925 to assist with the racing models. Pullin was responsible for engine development and Dixion the chassis. Rex Judd was involved with testing. So too late for the 3-1/2hp Sports based models or even the RA. Earlier in the book Clew mentions Dixon becoming more closely associated with the factory in 1924, though not specified in what role or capacity.

As for why no entry in the 1922 TT, I don't know. The previous year had been plagued with temperamental mounts but you would think with a year to sort out the problems they would have had another go. It might be that work was already starting on the successor RA, but again why not run refined versions of last year's models in the interim? Walter Moore did leave Douglas for ABC in 1922 (not sure what month), so they might have lost their key developmental guru for assembling a Works entry. The clash between Bailey and W.H.E. Millman was still a year or two off, so I don't think that was a factor.

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 26 Nov 2018 at 21:07
It's a big topic! I reckon there could be a book in "Douglas racers in 1922", and I think it would show that Douglas had the fastest motorcycles on the planet, but they were struggling to get them to (a) accelerate and (b) steer.

Pullin (said to be "Engineer, Brooklands" in 1922, rather than a Douglas employee) set amazing records during the year, but in the solo classes where he held flying start records (e.g. on a 350 at just a tick under 95 mph) other makes held the standing start records. During the year, there are references to Douglas racers using (at least) AMAC, B&B, Wex, and Cox Atmos carburettors, as well as various extra air devices. The bikes went well on full throttle, but not across the range. I think they stayed away from the TT because Douglases popping and farting their way around the low speed corners on the Isle of Man would have been an embarrassment, even if they did go like stink on the fast parts of the circuit.

Douglas advertising focussed almost entirely on speed records at Brooklands and elsewhere. Bailey's RA was a brilliant solution to the 1922 "woes"?

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 27 Nov 2018 at 07:01

Here's the twin-carb setup as at July 1922. Desperate. The large diameter tube on top of the air box couples to a fitting on the petrol filler cap - see Eve's bike (which does without the handlebar-controlled-variable-main-jets) above.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 27 Nov 2018 at 21:03
For the record, Bailey's racing career did not end in 1920 (although he wound back, he raced at Brooklands as late as November 1921)...

SLB was still racing (occasionally) during 1922, notably at the "Royal" race meeting at Brooklands in May. There were a number of Douglas racers on the track, with Emerson and Bailey finishing 2nd and 3rd respectively in the 1000cc Solo Handicap. Emerson's bike for the event had only one carburettor, Bailey's likely had two. Was this the point at which it was decided that a TT entry would have been futile?

By the way, HRH the Duke of York was a competitor in one of the three motorcycle events, on his Sports Douglas of course.

Bailey was also out in July 1922 at the East South Wales Open Hill Climb. Clearly he liked to be "hands on" with the race bikes.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 28 Nov 2018 at 20:48
I mentioned above that Cyril Pullin (1914 Senior TT winner and SLB's brother-in-law) was extremely successful at Brooklands in 1922. Arguably the greatest achievement was being the first rider to be officially timed at over 100 mph on a 500cc  motorcycle.

The famous machine was a Sports Model Douglas, more or less.

Of course Douglas Motors wanted the buying public to think that the bike was "standard", and if we look at the photo of "Cyril Pullin's 100 m.p.h. Douglas" in The Best Twin we'd have to agree.

But the photo published in the Motor Cycle 30 March 1922, a few days after the event, tells a different story - particularly in the carburettor department. Twin carbs and air box is the more likely set-up for the 100 mph bike.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 29 Nov 2018 at 20:08
One of numerous examples in the motorcycle record breaking annals of that which was publicized and that which actually claimed the record were not exactly the same machine!

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 29 Nov 2018 at 23:06
Yes indeed! If we were to believe the Douglas advertising, Pullin was flying around Brooklands on "standard production models"! See the advert below from December 1921.

Nothing could be further from the truth. By the end of 1921 Pullin had twin carburettors and an airbox on his Douglases. Here's a summary of Pullin and Douglas, sourced from period literature:

Pullin's first outing on a Douglas at Brooklands was at the Ealing and District MCC First Annual Race Meeting in July 1921. A week later he was back at Brooklands for the S.E. Centre  (A.C.U.) Speed Trials. "Practice" out of the way, he joined the big boys at a BMCRC Meeting the following week, when he gave notice by finishing second to Victor Horsman (Norton) in the three-lap scratch race.

By October he was seriously into the Brooklands game, having fitted "an ingeniously balanced air intake to his sports model Douglas".  Bailey and Emerson were also there on their Douglases, with Emerson taking the 500cc Solo Chamionship by some 500 yards from Pullin. Pullin then attached the sidecar to follow O'Donovan home in the 600cc Sidecar Championship.

The balanced air intake was described in more detail in the report of the November BMCRC Brooklands meeting: "A revival of an old idea was to be seen on Pullin's two Douglases [a 500 and a 750?] and Stewart's Trump. It originated in the old Gillet-Lehmann carburetter, and consists of connecting the carburetter air inlet to the float chamber or the tank, or to both, so that a pressure feed is obtained to a certain extent... Pullin's Douglas had a large pressure box fitted round the air inlets of his two carburetters. During the start Pullin got away rather badly..." 

I think it was probably Pullin (working at Brooklands, probably under some agreement with Douglas/Bailey) who developed the twin-carb-and-air-box for Douglas, and in the "Pullin got away rather badly" comment we see the trouble he was having getting proper carburation across the range.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 30 Nov 2018 at 22:25
A couple of comments re the Pullin 100mph Douglas:

No gear change lever is evident. It's likely that there were no gears in the gearbox, just the mainshaft acting as a countershaft. I've not read anything to confirm this for Pullin's DOuglas, but around the same time the chain-drive Brooklands Nortons had this approach.

Note the steel horseshoe that braces the top of the crankcase to the tank rail of the frame - standard fare for the "works" Sports Douglases and seen in close-up in photos earlier in the thread.


In The Best Twin, in my 1st edition at least, Clew says that Pullin was engaged to deliver Sports Models with a 100 mph guarantee. This is repeated in other Douglas books. 80 mph seems much more likely?

I like the comment "Mr Pullin's retaining fee is exceptionally high"!

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 30 Nov 2018 at 22:48
Perhaps we'd see the sump if the photo was from the other side?

At the same meeting (GP de la Sarthe, Le Mans, France, July 1921) Freddie Dixon (in his first race on a Douglas?) supplied the perfect view: from underneath! https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530680821

No sump there, but surprisingly there is a clutch.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 30 Nov 2018 at 22:49

More evidence to support my theory that the post-1921-TT development program resulted in extremely fast but difficult-to-ride twin-carb Douglases.

Only days after the 100 mph record at Brooklands, and reported in the same issue of the Motor Cycle (30 March 1922), Pullin was at the Essex M.C. Hill Climb at the famed Kop Hill.

"C. G. Pullin, fresh from his 100 m.p.h. efforts on Brooklands, was competing, but but his Douglas was firing irregularly, and in consequence he did not come into great prominence."

Less that 2 months before the 1922 TT, time was running out fast. Too late for a proper entry for the TT, so keep winning races and setting records at Brooklands, and get things sorted out for the 1923 TT. Which they did.

Leon

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 02 Dec 2018 at 08:05
In a thread about Les Bailey, I'm going to include a photo of this 1923 348cc Douglas as, of all the overhead-valve Douglases built between 1912 and 1923, this is possibly the one with least input from SLB.

The photo comes from Joseph Bayley's book The Vintage Years at Brooklands, and shows Rex Judd on a bike that was "reputed to have been designed by Cyril Pullin" after winning a 350cc race at Brooklands on 7 April 1923 at 80.2 mph. Judd rode the bike on its debut at Kop Hill on 24 March 1923.

The frame is interesting - somewhat RA-ish, with what looks like twin rails underneath the tank. Pullin's "sports" engine with twin carbs, handle-bar controlled variable main jets, gearbox under the rear cylinder. Very nice.

The RA was only a couple of months away, and it was good enough to win the 1923 Senior and Sidecar TTs with just a pair of fixed-jet AMAC 15TT23 carbs, with none of Pullin's external "balancing" pumbing. (The lids on the aluminium 15TT23 fuel bowls came with a vent fitting, but I've never seen it connected to anything on an RA?)

If the DW was Bailey's version of Pullin's EW https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=144 , is this bike Pullin's version of Bailey's RA? He must have known that the RA was under construction down at Bristol?

Pullin's sports-model-racers were still being used as speed machines in 1924.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 03 Dec 2018 at 20:31
Here's Bailey's 1923 RA frame for comparison with the Pullin-designed machine. Quite similar, but the RA engine has a much wider footprint than the Sports engine so the lower frame rails are wider apart on the RA. The major difference with the Pullin frame is the dual rails under the petrol tank. Check the junk pile down the back for unusual Douglas frames!

Douglas produced a comprehensive booklet aimed at RA riders entered for the 1923 TT. The booklet lists TWENTY patents and patent applications that cover the RA design, and all of them are in Bailey's name. About the only part of the RA that was not new was the cylinders and heads, which were more-or-less identical to those on the sports model. Since SLB was involved in this design in 1920, it's fair to describe the RA as completely designed by Bailey.

The only innovation on the RA that is not "completely Bailey" is the twin carburettor and air box, which had been developed by Pullin at Brooklands over the previous 18 months. However the Bailey/AMAC setup was considerably cleaner than the Pullin design, and did away with the complexity of the pressure balancing plumbing that Pullin was clearly wedded to. Of course the production RA did away with the variable main jet favoured by Pullin.

Even the "RA" (Research Association) brakes fitted to the RA were covered by a Bailey patent, and were neater and more efficient than the original design.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 03 Dec 2018 at 20:35
Stephen Leslie Bailey's "RA" Douglas, from the 1924 catalogue.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 04 Dec 2018 at 02:16
Excellent research Leon. Here we have where all the work by Bailey and others paid off - Tom Sheard's RA IOM TT 1923 winner.

(picture from IOM museum www.imuseum.im)

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 04 Dec 2018 at 21:33
Ain't it pretty? All of the subsequent Douglas road racers - up to the 1932 TT entries - developed in a fairly linear way from the RA.

Here's my scribble chronology of S. L. Bailey as it stands at the moment:

1906 January 31, SLB nominates for the Sydney 1000 bicycle race

1909 October 28, SLB wins heat of 3-miles motor cycle race in Sydney on a Triumph

1910 February 26, SLB working for Canada Cycle & Motor Co., Ltd., Newcastle, racing (British) Excelsior

1910 March 24, SLB wins 5-miles Championship of NSW on his 5-hp Massey JAP

1910 August 24, SLB attempts records on Massey JAP and LMC motorcycles

1911 Feb 11, SLB racing in Sydney for the Newcastle MCC on Massey JAP

1911 September 2, SLB, "motorist", arrrives in London on the Otway, 3rd class

1912 May 11, SLB racing a 2 3/4 TT Humber in Birmingham

1912 June 1, SLB rides W. Douglas's competition machine at Brooklands in All Comers' One Hour Race: 56 miles, 755 yards

1912 Bailey rides a Douglas in the TT

1912 July 20, SLB racing a 2 3/4 side-valve Douglas at Brooklands (see higher in this thread)

1912 December "last week" (on 5th), SLB testing 2 3/4 OHV Douglas at Brooklands (with Granville Bradshaw parts)

1912 December 16, SLB due to leave for Australia

1912 December 17, SLB record setting at Brooklands on the OHV 350 (so departure delayed).

1912 December 19, leaves for Australia with Weatherilt.

1913 February 12, SLB in Forbes NSW, returning to Sydney to attempt records. Plans to return to England "for the opening of the racing season"

1913 May 13, SLB record breaking on 2 3/4 Douglas in Melbourne: one hour record

1913 June, SLB record breaking in Brisbane

1913 July 25, SLB leaves Sydney on S.S. Sonoma to UK via USA

1913 September 11, SLB back in England, quite badly injured in motorcycle accident (on the road, I think)

1913 October 4, Debut of "new" (narrow pushrod) OHV Douglas at Weston-super-Mare, Alexander riding

1913 October 11, "New" OHV Douglas entered for BMCRC meeting at Brooklands, ridden by Alfie Alexander.

1914 February 28, Track tests of "new" ohv Douglas (1914 TT model), F. G. Ball riding, SLB on crutches and timekeeping.

1914 March 28, SLB racing OHV Douglas at BMCRC meeting at Brooklands - 1914-TT-style Douglas engine, but in single down-tube frame

1914 September 22, SLB sets Class F (350 sidecar) records at Brooklands

1915 December 15, SLB "now holding an important position with Messrs. Douglas Bros." marries Cyril Pullin's sister

1917 May 3, SLB "Douglas", "well-known motorcyclist", attends Cyril Pullin's wedding

1917 September 20, SLB conducts a tour of the Douglas Works for "The Motor Cycle". Hints, but "not at liberty to divulge details"

1918 April 4, SLB and W.W. Douglas return from France, promoting 4hp Douglas for French army

1919 May 8, SLB injures hand in car accident in Bath at Easter

1919 August 29, Weston-super-Mare: F.G. Ball debuts 8-valve aluminium-cylinder Douglas racer - beaten by SLB on 1914-TT-style machine

1920 May 28, Tudor Thompson at Brooklands on 350 Douglas (presumably with "Sports" style motor)

1920 June, Douglas TT machines have "Sports" style motor with belt drive; brakes on rim at front, on belt rim at rear

1920 August 17, SLB beats flying-5-mile record at 66.18 mph: "Sports" type motor, chain drive, with precursor to RA/S1 disc brake at rear

1920 August 21, SLB sails for Australia with "a new 2 3/4 h.p. chain driven model"

1920 October 15, Back in Sydney for "thee-weeks' trip"

1920 October 28, Sports Model announced in The Motor Cycle with SLB-designed disc front brake etc.

1921 January 13, SLB "on his way back from the Antipodes"

1921 July 20, SLB applies for disc brake patent (granted as GB187687, 1922)

1922 March 23, C. G. Pullin exceeds 100 mph on 494cc Douglas

1922 May 19, Possibly SLB's last competitive race at Brooklands

1923 May 30, First public photos of SLB's masterpiece, the RA Douglas

1925 February 27, SLB arrives back in Sydney for "well-earned break"

In Australia 1925-1929:

Douglas Motors Ltd. factory representative for Australasia

Chairman of Directors, Penrith Speedway, Ltd.

Factory representative, Coventry Chains

Factory representative, AMAC carburettors

Vice President, Western Suburbs Motor Cycle Club

Vice President, Douglas Motor Cycle Club

Director, Missendon Road Motor Body Works, Ltd.

Director, Australasian Motor Investment & Finance Co. Ltd.

Director, Maroubra Speedway, Ltd.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 04 Dec 2018 at 22:41
From the Australia Birth Index;

1888 July 15 Burrowa, NSW, Stephen L Bailey born to George and Elizabeth Bailey



(BTW Burrowa is now known as Boorowa

http://www.aussietowns.com.au/town/boorowa-nsw )

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 04 Dec 2018 at 22:52
Leon,

Les's probate notice could sadly be the other bookend to your chronology?

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 05 Dec 2018 at 00:20
It appears that G. Bailey and Son were in Burrowa Street in Young at least as early as 1901. It later became G.Bailey & Sons. Albert Bailey was one of the son's. Is the Leslie referred to in this court case, reported in the Young Chronicle 11 April 1906,  S.L. Bailey? If so then was Les living in Sydney in 1906?
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 05 Dec 2018 at 21:12
Wow - that's so interesting! A family connection to "the trade" goes a long way to explaining some things I haven't pursued yet.

An article that appeared in various Australian papers in October 1920, when Bailey was visiting, says in part:

"Les Bailey was only a youth when he left Australia's shores. In his very early dayshe rode a cycle and promoted races in the country. Bob SPears, now the world's champion cyclist, rode his first race at a meeting promoted by Bailey, at Tingha, a mining town, while, earlier than this, 1906 to be exact, he promoted the first road race which Reg McNamara, now one of the best riders in the world, contested."

I got as far as locating Tingha on the map, and pondering how an 18-year-old could promote a cycling event. But an 18-year-old with a father and brother in the trade is a different matter.

Anyway, here's Les in his role as Douglas factory representative in Australasia. If newspaper reports are to be believed, Bailey was responsible for landing the TT Douglas, putting it in the hands of Conoulty, and even tuning it after initial trials were disappointing.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 06 Dec 2018 at 05:25
Leon,

Yes i think some of the details of SLB's life prior to him going to the UK are starting to fall into place a little. 1905-1906 appears to be a tumultuous time in the Bailey household. Starting with the fire in 1905,referred to above in Albert's court statement, which appears to have caused considerable damage to the premises and stock of G. Bailey and Son's in Young. reported in the Young Chronicle 28th June 1905.

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 06 Dec 2018 at 05:36
The business "G.Bailey and Son" was then sold to Bennett and Barkell as reported in the Young Chronicle on 9th August 1905 and George decided to sell up everything and move on, indicating he was possibly moving to New Zealand. His property and chattels were auctioned in September 1905. This may have been the reason Les was away from the district by 1906?.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 08 Dec 2018 at 04:05
How much of Pullin's "balanced induction system" made it to the RA?

Interesting question. I think the answer is "some, but not all".

I mentioned above that the AMAC 15TT23 carburettors - very special and no doubt made specifically for the new Douglas racers - came with a fitting on the lid of the fuel bowl to allow for an air pipe for this purpose. At the time the carbs were ordered the idea was still in mind.

In the lead up to the 1923 TT, the Motor Cycle observed: "Contrary to common opinion, there is no pressure balancing on the induction system, but the carburetters (there are two per machine) take air from a box fitted upon the timing cover. This box has its orifice facing to the rear, and it also is provided with a baffle in the centre, which shields and separates the two intakes. Passing through the intake box are two cross-shafts or spindles, rotated by Bowden wire and short links".

Yet on the opposite page the line drawing shows a short (air) pipe from the fuel chamber lid disappearing into the air box.

My air box has the holes for these pipes.

So it looks like some of the Pullin system survived into Bailey's RA, balancing the air pressure in the air box to that in the fuel bowls. However I don't think the RA went the whole way and balanced the air-box pressure with the air above the petrol in the tank.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 08 Dec 2018 at 06:54
Leon,

The subsequent 1925 Works and 1926 catalog I.o.M./TT models continued on with the small tubes venting the float bowls to the airbox, as shown in the RA illustration.

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 08 Dec 2018 at 07:02
Hi Doug,

They're pretty weird little things - because the length and shape of the tube depends on where the fitting ends up when the fuel bowl lid is done up tight. I assume they were just copper tubes?

Was there originally a little (rubber?) cover over the tickler? In principal it should be air tight if the balancing thing is to work.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: eddie on 08 Dec 2018 at 13:43
Leon,
          Are you sure the tubes are there to balance the air pressures - with the large intake to the airbox, there is unlikely to be much depression within the box. I think it is more likely to be a means of venting the tops of the float chambers without increasing the chance of water ingress during a wet race.

  Regards,
                Eddie.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 08 Dec 2018 at 13:47
Leon,

Yes, copper tube and brass fittings, nickel plated.

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasmotorcycles.net%2Faa-files%2Fimages%2Fdoug%2F2018%2F1925_Douglas_IoM_model_engine_detail.jpg&hash=695556cabd26503f1d8d4dbc56047079)

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 08 Dec 2018 at 14:17
Eddie,

There were much simpler ways to create a water-proof vent the float bowls; so I think something more must have been the intent. Period accounts do clearly mention a 'pressure balanced' system. Whether it actually worked or not is an entirely different matter! :)

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 08 Dec 2018 at 23:37

I agree Eddie, it's a bit of a stretch that the pressure in the air box would be much less than one atmosphere. I think Doug's comment is right on the ball: it's a pressure balancing feature but whether it's worthwhile...

The plan is clear. Carburettors of the period were designed to have the fuel level held constant (by the float) just below the jet (or vapourising holes in the case of the 15TT23). In theory, with the engine accelerating the pressure in the air box - and hence the mouth of the carburettor - is less than 1 atm, so the fuel will rise in the jet for TWO reasons: (1) the usual venturi effect and (2) because the air pressure above the fuel in the float bowl is greater than the air pressure in the carburettor. Both effects richen the mixture, but advocates of "pressure balancing" would like to remove effect (2).

I guess one of the problems that Pullin had with his twin-carb bikes in 1921-1922 was too-rich mixture when accelerating, so he developed his over-complicated system of pressure-balancing + handlebar-controlled-variable-main-jet. A couple of years later tuners would be dealing with the problem by raising or lowering the needle (the AMAC of the day didn't have one) or varying the cutaway in the throttle slide.

These were still pioneering days in some ways.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 08 Dec 2018 at 23:55
Hi Doug,

Thanks for the photo of the little "balance tube" on the TT. If you look really hard it can also be seen on Sheard's 1923 TT winner - see below.

For the balancing to work, the top of the fuel bowl has to be sealed (other than the connection inside the air box). The ticklers on the 15TT23 AMAC carbs on the RA have a threaded part that projects up around the outside of the tickler itself, which is almost a wire. I'm 99% certain there were rubber caps that "screwed" on to the fitting, over the top of the tickler, to seal the fuel bowl top, but still allow the tickler to be depressed. Hard to get a photo that shows this, but the two line drawings attacked - of Pullin's Brooklands setup, and the RA - both show a cap over the tickler.

Cheers

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 09 Dec 2018 at 02:45
Just looking at SLB's patent GB201715 lodged June 22 1922. The pressure balancing of the carburettors would make a lot more sense if you were going to supercharge the engine.......
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 09 Dec 2018 at 04:13
You'd think that GB201715, in which the crankcase acts as a supercharger, was just a bit of imaginative fluff from Bailey's overactive mind.

By then, what is the beast that Judd was riding as Arpajon, France in July 1924??

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 09 Dec 2018 at 09:54
And speaking of 1924...

1924 is a "missing year" in the Bailey chronology. If "The Best Twin" were to be believed, S. L. Bailey left Douglas late in 1923, replaced by his friend and brother-in-law Cyril Pullin.

But I don't think this is correct.

There is lots of evidence that SLB continued on at Douglas through all/most of 1924 - likely in the top job - during which time he continued to innovate and patent his ideas. His last batch of Douglas-related patents were filed late in October 1924, and he was back living in Sydney when they were accepted during 1925. A number of these patents covered OB development, so it's fair to acknowledge SLB's contribution to OB design and development.

Bailey had a gala send-off by the Douglas Club in December 1924 hosted by club president John Douglas, at Kingswood. The event was reported in Motor Cycling 17 Dec 1924. SLB was presented with "a magnificent gold watch and an autographed album" as mementos of his time at Douglas Motors. In response he spoke in glowing terms of his time at Douglas and the prospects in Australia "to which  country [he] departs early in January as the representative of Douglas Motors Ltd."

The day before his departure for Australia on 16 January 1925, the Motor Cycle published a full-page article by Bailey, entitled "FIFTEEN YEARS' ENDEAVOUR - A Pioneer Describes his Efforts to Interest British Manufacturers in Overseas Trade". To give an idea of the tone of the article, it begins"Fifteen summers have passed since I first landed on on old Albion's shores" and finishes "You have treated me wonderfully, but Australia is calling, the stars are blinking in a blue sky under the Southern Cross, and I am going home. Au revoir!" with a facsimile signature S. L. Bailey.

Anyway, I make the point that it seems that SLB was running Douglas through 1924. During 1924, Cyril Pullin and Rex Judd were developing racers and attempting records at Brooklands, Arpajon and elsewhere, I suppose on the Douglas payroll? One marker of Pullin taking up his leading role as designer at Kingswood early in 1925 was the beginning, in February 1925, of a prodigious program of patents filed by Pullin and Douglas Motors Ltd, in much the same way as Bailey did when he was in the role.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 10 Dec 2018 at 20:48

A couple of posts back there is a newspaper photo of Les Bailey and Billy Conoulty with a TT Douglas in Australia in July 1926. The caption credits Bailey as the "designer". Sort of true, because the IOM TT Douglas that first appeared at the TT in 1925 was a development of the Bailey's RA, but let's credit Cyril Pullin for the improvements.

Here's Rex Judd at Brooklands in March 1925, just a couple of months after the handover from Bailey to Pullin. The bike represents the transition from Bailey's RA (confusingly often called the IOM TT model in the day) to Pullin's IOM TT. Bailey is still there with the RA-style  frame and single-spring fork, but incorporating the OB gearbox with its frame mounting lug and frame-mounted gear change. Peer hard and you can see the RA brake on the far side at the rear, and an RA-pattern sump. The motor has evolved to something like the TT, with a mechanical oil pump under the air box and an oil pressure gauge on top of the large air box.

Judd won two races on the day, the fastest at 86 mph. Allowing for the standing start, the bike must have been good for a lap of Brooklands at 90-ish mph in 1925.

Bailey's classic RA design lived on in all the racing Douglases, through to the final works bikes in 1932.

Leon
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 11 Dec 2018 at 02:01
Hi Leon,

If you wanted to become a speedway racer in the Antipodes in the late 20's and you could not get hold of,or afford a pukka DT you could use an OB and make yourself a Rex Judd "replica"!  :D...probably partially explains the scarcity of OB's and OC's these days! These pictures are from Kilbirnie stadium Wellington  1930.

https://natlib.govt.nz/items?i%5Bsubject%5D%5B%5D=Kilbirnie&i%5Bsubject%5D%5B%5D=Speedway+motorcycle+racing


Cheers

Ian

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 11 Dec 2018 at 21:09
I prefer "look-alike" - "replica" sounds a bit too official. Interesting that the guy in the middle photo has cut down a full-electric OC - surely it deserved better.

By the TT in June 1925 Pullin's upgrade to the Bailey RA was complete.

Leon

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: cardan on 11 Dec 2018 at 21:14
Les's waistcoat buttons hint at why others were doing the riding in 1923.
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 12 Dec 2018 at 02:11
SLB's "middle aged spread" can also be seen in this 1921 picture of him with the Douglas racing car at Brooklands!

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/douglas-racing-car-of-sl-bailey-at-the-jcc-200-mile-race-news-photo/624163318

Some details of the OHV engine can just be seen.

The frame of Lounde's bike posted above appears to be OB rather than OC given the front and rear brake shoe lever mounting lug locations? Rear wheel is obviously not OB, engine could be either OB or OC. Either way - as Leon said above -it deserved better!

well done Leon on getting to the 100th reply of this thread with the word "century" in the advert you posted!.



Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 13 Dec 2018 at 00:37
All three bikes pictured at Wellington Speedway are (or started out as) OB models. The OC would have the rear axle lugs casting like the DT/SW and TT/IoM models had. OB had the simple plate lug like the RA.

-Doug
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 18 Dec 2018 at 07:29
Doug, Thanks for the clarification on the OB/OC rear axle lugs. that confirms all 3 bikes to have started life as OB's

 I have just come across this interesting British Pathe film on the1923 IOM Senior TT. Great footage of RA's, the atrocious weather, Sheard finishing and  we catch a very short glimpse of Les Bailey moving towards the camera and out of shot at about 1:23 and then another with him congratulating Tom Sheard for the win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJQuuJc9-o


cheers

Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 18 Dec 2018 at 07:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yweuYd-auZk
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 08 Jan 2019 at 01:22
From the video of the 1923 TT win, there appears to be some poignancy in Les putting his hat across his chest rather that waving it in the air triumphantly for Tom Sheard, possibly because the day before (Thursday 14th June 1923) was the funeral of William Wilson Douglas? (reported in the Western Daily Press, Bristol 15 June 1923). He had passed away on Sunday 10th June 1923.

This, along with the death of Veasey on a Douglas during the senior TT, would definitely have put a damper on what otherwise would have been a huge celebration after all the efforts in getting the Douglas Factory Team ready for the TT (this information being presented by Clew in The Best Twin).

Unfortunately more bad news was to come. The following day, Saturday 17th June 1923, Miss Helen Douglas, daughter of John Douglas was tragically run over  by a taxi cab while crossing a road at Weston Super Mare on the first day of a holiday and died later in hospital – this was reported in the Western Daily Press on Sunday 17th June 1923.

This must have been an incredibly upsetting time for the Douglas family having a double bereavement in such a short space of time. Helen’s funeral was on Friday 22nd June 1923 with many shocked mourners in attendance including S.L. Bailey. Maybe no wonder we don’t see much of what Les was doing after this time - until he leaves for Australia - given the extremely sad occasion(s) and given he would have been busy with new models, Olympia Show (in October) and maybe also managing the  transition for Pullin to take over his role at Douglas?

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 23 Jan 2019 at 02:27
I have been looking into what SLB was up to during WW 1. Information has been hard to come by for that period but I have found a few items. Just before the start of the war we have Les being caught for speeding at Kingston Hill. The speed limit in that area those days was probably 30 MPH and going by newspaper reports of the day was regularly enforced in the UK, in particular when WW1 started. Les was fined what would amount to over 200 Pounds in today's money for exceeding the speed limit by 3/4 MPH! He was probably doing more than that......

"The Hut" in Weybridge appears to have been a "Tea Garden"  and a B&B. It is not far from Brooklands, so was probably where Les stayed when attending racing and testing there?

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 23 Jan 2019 at 02:41
In January 1915 Les was in Liverpool trying to expedite the release of a shipment of American made magnetos - maybe Splitdorf Dixie? - as the Bosch ZA2's were no longer available - for obvious reasons!. I have seen a picture (In the Classic Motor Cycle magazine) of lines and lines of 1914 Dougies at the factory awaiting magneto's so they could be completed and sent out for the war effort. I think that picture was from 1915......

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 23 Jan 2019 at 07:04
During 1915 there were industrial disputes at Douglas Bros' mainly over pay conditions and many employees walked off the job. On 3rd May 1915. SLB attended an industrial meeting of 800 men at Kingsley Hall who had downed tools and was reported in the Western Daily Press on 5th;

"...Mr BAILEY (a cycle racer) said they were just as much working for the war as the men the trenches. Personally he thought they should have formed their union without "downing tools." (Dissent.) Personally he would have preferred to have seen them form their union without ceasing work. The War Office had told them they wanted 250 machines week from Douglas's, but in order to do so they would need night shifts. . Enrolment of members in the union followed, during which audience sang " Tipperary" and other songs. ....."



 SLB also spoke at the Douglas works, doing his part for industrial relations as reported in the Western Daily Press, Bristol May 8 1915;

"THE DISPUTE AT KINGSWOOD. WILLIAM DOUGLAS & HIS MEN. Yesterday, Messrs Douglas Bros.' employees, numbering 458. who are still at work, assembled in the dining hall adjoining the works, and heard what Mr W. Douglas had to say on the present crisis. Mr W. Douglas, who spoke on the war crisis, said he did not think it was an occasion for anyone to think of money-making before duty. He added: I have been quite satisfied to supply goods to the War Office and the Government, not only the old price charged before the war, but even at reduced prices. A good many people are under the impression, that have received enhanced prices, owing to the demand, but this is not the case. To show my appreciation in practical manner of the men who have stood me, they shall receive an advance of per cent wages each week, every man and boy on the place. (Applause.) In addition to this, I am going to give you another 5 per cent., which will be added to a card given each one for the purpose every week; but this you will draw at the end of the war, or. if the war is not over by Christmas, 1915, we will make the first payment on the Christmas. (Applause.) I know it is necessary you should have some increase, on account of the, increased cost food and provisions of all kinds. Speaking to the workers subsequently, Mr S. L. Bailey said the bonus being given by Douglas did not come from the Government, it was from his own pocket. After alluding to the fact that the works had been kept open for the sake of the men in the early days of the war, and machines were accumulated without any prospect of their sale, he said had been a slice of luck that they were able to sell the machines to the Government. He added: There are quite a number of pals having a rest, who went out on Monday, and are not coming back until they are tired having a rest. Now, on Monday morning Mr Douglas walked through the works, and not a single complaint was made to him, neither did a single man speak to him. and no mention was made that the men required anything fresh. He walked down the road the works the men were leaving for their lunch-time. and not a single man complained. However, the men did not return after lunch. In future, that there will be no excuse for complaints, we are having a suggestion box. That box will be the means of direct communication between " man" and " master.' It will there for you workmen to put any complaints or suggestions, except, of course, trivial things, as we do not want the box abused. Another thing I want to mention. You may have pals relations who think the works are closed to them. Now. if you see any them will you tell them the works are open, and always will open, for the men to return either individually collectively, and they will not victimised in any way. They can return singly in a body, whichever they like. (Applause.) Not a single man will be victimised in any way. Mr Bailey added that all the workmen were to have badges shortly "

It is interesting the statement by Bailey which seems to imply that without sales to the government for the war effort Douglas might have been struggling to sell motorcycles!

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 25 Jan 2019 at 06:01
The strike was over fairly shortly afterwards with most men returning to work with a 10% pay rise. I am still trying to find out the significance of the badges that they were issued with.

On the 29th May 1916 the Bristol Western daily Press reported that there was a Quarterly meeting of The "Douglas" Soldiers fund and that the chair was held by Bailey, who remarked after reading the balance sheet that the results disclosed were "surprisingly satisfactory"! The fund had been started by a Mr. Hodges who was a workman at Douglas Bros. and the primary aim of the fund was to regularly forward parcels of smokes, groceries, comforts etc. to their "late" fellow workmen who were new to active service. By that date 734 parcels to 104 soldiers had been dispatched. 8 soldiers on leave and 5 patient inmates in military hospitals had received monetary assistance in lieu of parcels. Bailey suggested that as well as dispatching parcels the fund could also offer a little relief to the wives of the soldiers.

On Feb 7 1917 The Western Daily Press reported that Wounded soldiers were entertained at the dining hall at Douglas's and later that year on 2nd November it was reported that Bailey attended court in a hearing relating to a theft from the factory. interestingly it refers to his position with the company as being the manager of the munition department.

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 29 Jan 2019 at 07:03
Just jumping forward for a moment to 1920 as I have found a possible link to William John Webb that was mentioned in posts #11 and #12 on this thread by Paul and Leon in regards to SLB's B.M.C.R.C. medal for the 1912 All Comers Handicap.

The funeral of a William Webb was reported in the Bristol Western Daily Press 4 March 1920, he was the licencee of the Kingswood Hotel and was 52. This would probably make him to old to be the William Webb whom Paul refers to, but he had a son who is also named William and could possibly be the recipient of Les's medal.


"FUNERAL OF MR WEBB, KINGSWOOD.

The funeral yesterday Mr Win. Webb (52), licensee of Kingswood Hotel, who died on Saturday as the result a motor cycle accident, at Holy Trinity Church, Kingswood, was largely attended. The chief mourners were Mrs Webb (widow), Wm. Webb (son), Mrs Hunt (Redditch), and Mrs Edkins .(Studley, Warwick). There were also present:—Messrs W. Douglas, W. W. Douglas, S. L. Bailey, Gwynne Parry and Geo. Bayley; Messrs Burnham (chairman), S. Fox and P. R. Betty, Kingswood Urban District Council; Messrs P. McWhirter. S. Britton, W. Golding, E. Greenland (Bradford-on-Avon) and McCrae, representing the licensed victuallers; Messrs Arnold Matthews. S. Fox, E. R. Candy, John Mortimer, Issac Bryant and F. W. Higgins representing Kingswood Horse Show; Messrs W. Douglas, W. W. Douglas. S. L. Bailey, W. B. Cox, G. Allan, and H. Harris, the Douglas Club; Messrs T. Mackay and W. Bryant, Douglas Anglers' Club. There were also present:—Messrs W. C. Stone, W. Bryant, A. G. Davies, H. Howes, W. Joines, F. Smith, J. Frv, W. E. Phipps. T. Evans, E. Joy, E. Morris, W. H. Morris, G. Blann. A. Short, A. G. Davies, Mr and Mrs Squires (Fishponds), Mrs Stevens (Brislington), Inspector Goulder, G. Olds, Geo. Randall. C. Manning, F. Pratten. Richardson, T. Evans, W. B. Cox, T. Mr and Miss Evans (Trowbridge), E. Harris, and Baker. The Vicar Kingswood (Canon Dandy) officiated. There were wreaths from Mrs Webb, a iarge cross from deceased's smoke room friends. friends at Studley, Warwickshire, Mr and Mrs Fred Iles, Mr and Mrs Coleman, Mr and Mrs McWhirter,Mr  and Mrs Wallis, Mr and Mrs S. L. Bailey (Staple Hill), Lily and Laura Squire (Fishponds), Mr T. Evans and family (Wingfield), Ashton Gate Brewery. and Mrs Manning. Dorothy and Madge. Mr and Chapple Mrs S. R. Stevens (Brislington), Mr and Mrs Payne (Bedminster), Mr and Mrs Iles. Misses Elsie and Flo Iles, Mr and Mrs Blake,Mr and Mrs Chandler. Mr and Mrs F. Pratten. Mr and Mrs F. Shellard, Mr and Mrs R. Fudge, Mr and Mrs Brown and Doliy. The funeral arrangements were carried out Mr S. Boulton, Kingswood. "

-Ian
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 31 Jan 2019 at 02:31
I found a reference to a donation made by a W.J.Webb of the Kingswood Hotel so seems to confirm one connection between Douglas, Bailey and Paul's Great Grandfather.

I have not managed to find much more on what Bailey was up to during WW1.... yet, but moving to 1919 I came across some interesting links between Bailey and Sir John Alcock - the pilot of the first Atlantic non-stop crossing by aeroplane. W.W. Douglas was also a friend and I gather they had known each other for some time. Sir John raced a Douglas car at Brooklands and was going to be presented with a new one from the factory for his success in crossing the Atlantic, but unfortunately he was killed in a plane crash in December 1919 before it could be delivered.

This article appeared in the Bristol Western Daily Press the day after Captain John Alcock and Lt. Arthur Whitten Brown's landing in Ireland.

I had read a later article on Bailey when he returned to Australia that stated he had been involved in some aviation activities but I didn't know at the time he was probably  referring to these events. It does appear he played some role in events leading up to the successful crossing.

-Ian

Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Doug on 01 Feb 2019 at 15:40
Some more pictures of the early ohv engines. First is a better picture of the timing side of the 'steel' cylinder engine built for SLB by Bradshaw. Unfortunately I did not document the publication, but it looks like one of the motorcycling periodicals.

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2018/Bailey/steel-cylinder-ohv-timing-side.jpg)

This second image looks like the machine seen early in this thread mounted by SLB and F.G. Ball; here being riden by Kickham. Not the clearest of pictures, but I don't think it has the axial fins of the steel cylinder SLB engine, but the radial fins.

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2018/Bailey/kickham-on-ohv-1.jpg)

(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/doug/2018/Bailey/kickham-on-ohv-2.jpg)


-Doug



Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 14 Feb 2019 at 04:13
Great pictures Doug!, the one of the Bradshaw / Bailey creation showing a lot more detail than the ones previously posted. The one of Kickham at the Liverpool MC speed trial is interesting as it looks very similar to the one shown of Alfie Alexander is on in Leon's post #33 from Jeff Clew's "The Best twin", but from the other side?

I found out that the badges that SLB refers to in post #108 were badges that identified that the wearer was doing important work for the war effort and was needed at home rather than enlisting. These were worn as some members of the public were quite vocal in letting their patriotic feelings being heard and harassing any eligible male to enlist - even if they were needed on the home front in specialist roles.

It appears that Captain Sir John Alcock had a few links with Bristol and the Douglas factory. On the day he was knighted with Brown he attended a Gymkhana organised by the Bristol Motor Cycle Club. This was one of a series of events organised by the club in connection with a visit by members of the Auto-Cycle union and reported in the Bristol Western Daily Press June 23 1919. As part of these events a tour of the Douglas works was made on the 21st and S.L.Bailey announced at the luncheon that Sir Alcock would be coming direct from his visit to the King at Windsor in order to attend their (the Bristol MCC) rally. Sir Alcock also was the guest of members of the Bristol MCC at a dinner later that evening.

In the Whiltshire Times and Trowbridge Advertiser June 21st 1919, it was reported that a congratulatory telegram was sent to Alcock after his successful flight by his good friend Mr. Fred W. Ball of Home Hill Buildings, castle St. Trowbridge, who was Mr. F.G. Balls father. It is stated that at the time that  Frederick George Ball was the head of the experimental and competition department of Douglas Motors and that he had flown with Alcock a number of times in the past.

Very soon Sir John Alcock and Sir Arthur Brown were national hero's and celebrities and very much in demand by the public and Alcocks connections with Bristol as noted in the press is limited. In September 1919 Alcock attended a sports meeting in Kingswood, Bristol to sign 12 programmes for the public (reported in Bristol Western Daily Press September 8th 1919). This sports club was part of Douglas with President Mr. W.Douglas, Vice President Messrs W.W.Douglas, J.Douglas and A.P. Douglas, chairman and treasurer Mr. S.L.Bailey and hon Secretary Mr. F.C. Dunn
Title: Re: S.L. Bailey
Post by: Hutch on 18 Feb 2019 at 04:41
What are the chances of finding a copy of the telegram from Alcock to Bailey sent from Clifden if such a thing existed? Close to zero I would have thought. This find seems almost too good to be true.....but I guess stranger things have happened.....?

from: http://www.battle-axe.org/gallery/index.htm

-Ian