Help, Nesbitt Robinson

[Red]

Can anyone throw any light on the attached photo - where it may have been taken? The rider's name was Nesbitt Robinson. Thanks

Roy

[EW-Ron]

Looks very organised - in the backgound = timekeepers ?
Since roadracing was banned in England from very early on, then has to be Brooklands or the IoM
Entry lists for these events are slowly appearing online, may be possible to scope this out ?

And SR Keig Ltd photoed every rider in the IoM for many years.
Mr Robinson is not in the published photos done by Bruce Main Smith.

And bike looks early-ish. 1912 ish ?
Will wait for more solid dating.
Great photo, btw.

If Mr N. Robinson is Irish, may add some complexity to the quest.
Good Luck, keep us posted.

[EW-Ron]

Well helmeted rider may make it later than it looks though ?

[cardan]

Yes, looks to be a mostly-war-time bike in a post-war setting.

In the UK in the early 1920s there weren't many places you could go racing with no mudguards and open pipes: Brooklands and some of the beach racing venues? The rider and crew look very young indeed, so a guess would be a "school boys" or perhaps university event somewhere.

Are there other clues Roy? Tempting to guess that Nesbitt Robinson might be related to Herbert Robinson who was the Douglas agent in Cambridge: Herbert Jnr and "N Robinson" were active in local events in the early 1920s.

Leon

[Red]

I think you are right Leon. The 1911 census show a Nesbit Robinson having been born in 1903 and his father was Herbert Robinson and at the time of the census they were living in Cambridge. Do you have any further information about their motorcycling activities. I should say that the photograph came to the club from the grandson of Nesbit Robinson, but apart from the photograph he had no other information.

Thanks to you all.

Roy

[Red]

Found a picture of Herbert Robinson's garage taken in the 1930's

[Red]

This photo is said to be from 1914 and shows a Douglas (?) with sidecar at Herbert Robinson's garage in Regent Street Cambridge. This was found on the Cambridge history web site.

[cardan]

Hi Roy,

Nesbit Robinson born in 1903 would work well with the main photo: a 16yo at a celebratory sporting event c1919?

Herbert Robinson Ltd was a very active business, even promoting sporting events of their own for their staff and (presumably) "friends". The events I can see were road trials, so the stripped bike with open exhausts doesn't fit in there...

Some guff from the Motor Cycle attached below, but there is lots of other stuff about Herbert Robinson Ltd, selling new Douglases etc.

Leon

[cardan]

One of the clubs that catered for schoolboys was the Public Schools M.C.C. Members were either current or past students at public schools.

Getting more specific, there were events like a 1919 hill-climb, but this required machines in road trim... The "Robinson cup" was "presented by the father of one of the members..." I wonder if Nesbit Robinson was a member?

However in 1920 racing resumed at Brooklands, and the Public Schools M.C.C. ran members-only races at a couple of meetings. For example a race was announced for the August 18 meet, but weather intervened before it was run. I wonder could the photo be in the paddock at Brooklands at one of these meetings? Racing at Brooklands was surely a high point for schoolboy fun.

Leon

[Red]

As EW- Ron has said it all looks so well organised I wonder if it was possibly this event which is listed for 1920:-

“THE FIRST POST-WAR INTER-VARSITY motorcycle event resulted in a dead heat, each University gaining 32 marks. The event created a great deal of interest, and, considering the fact that the delivery of new machines is slow, the number of competitors was quite remarkable. Of the two universities, Cambridge produced by far the most entrants, and it is a curious fact that motor cycling has always flourished to a greater extent on the Cam than on the Isis. Among the numerous machines to be seen at the start, we noticed two of the new NUTs, a Beardmore-Precision, and one of the new flat-twin Harley-Davidsons. Among the competitors, the best-known rider produced by Oxford was Openshaw, who is now a professor of engineering at the University, and is riding an overhead valve Zenith, the only machine of its type in the competition, which, as usual, was wonderfully fast, and well ridden. On the side of Cambridge, we noticed TV Prestwich, son of Mr JA Prestwich, of JAP engine fame, who was riding a Diamond…The event concluded with a slow hill climb over a distance of 100 yards. Slipping of clutches or touching the ground with the feet was forbidden. The first three classes (250cc, 300cc and 350cc) were not counted, as Oxford could provide no entrants, so that Cambridge had a walk over in these events.”

It is hard to believe that Robinsons Garage was not involved in some way

[eddie]

We know the history of our 1913 TT Douglas. It was bought new from the factory by Edward Stroud and used for racing on the board tracks around London. It was then laid up until 1960 - when it was bought by Alan Phillipps. The board tracks were originally intended as venues for bicycle racing, but were soon utilised for motorcycle events - so the board tracks could be added to the possibilities for events that catered for these early racing machines!

  Regards,
               Eddie.

[cardan]

As EW- Ron has said it all looks so well organised I wonder if it was possibly this event which is listed for 1920

This event was a hill climb on public roads, so the machines were road-equipped and registered, although there were some naughty exhausts. So I doubt this was the event.

If we skip to 1922 the Public Schools MCC was pretty active, and club president Col Lloyd sponsored an entire "impromptu" race meeting at Brooklands, held on April 1, 1922. This would be a great opportunity for young members to put in some laps? On the day Col. Lloyd was "a tower of strength, officiating as starter, jusdge, time-kepper, and in various other capacities". I wonder if the club set up the trestles in the paddock for the ladies to to do the admin and the sandwiches. Nesbit would have been 19, which seems plausible for the photo?

Eddie did Stroud actually race the Douglas on velodromes, or just "demonstrate" it? Out here they tried racing on cycle board tracks - for example the Saucer built in Melbourne in 1909 - but it proved too dangerous. But at most events the local "crack" Cecil de Fraga gave demonstrations on his motor bike, eventually lapping at nearly 60 mph, despite the track being 8 laps to the mile. Madness.

Cheers

Leon

[Red]

Attached is a photo of Nesbit Robinson's road bike. Is it a 1922/3 3 1/2 HP Sports? I'll leave it to you experts to tell me exactly which model it is. His grandson tells me that it was used at Brooklands and clocked at 100mph. Thanks

Roy

[cardan]

Yes it is, but it's a very special one: seems to have twin carbs and an airbox. Not something available to the average customer.

Clocking 100mph at Brooklands on a bike like this would be a big ask. Cyril Pullin was the first to do 100 mph on a 500 on his Douglas at Brooklands, but this required a very special motorcycle and special timing arrangements. Seems unlikely that an amateur (was Nesbit Robinson and amateur?) could emulate this feat. Perhaps he borrowed a special bike from Pullin?

Leon

[cardan]

OK, here's a curious coincidence that might bear on Roy's comment that Nesbit Robinson's S1 Douglas did 100 mph at Brooklands.

A few years back we discussed how Pullin's development of the S1 lead, in March 1922, to him becoming the first rider of British soil to exceed 100 mph. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27563#msg27563 To do this, he arranged to be timed over the very unusual distance of half a mile at Brooklands; usually the shortest recognised distance was 1 km. And the man who set up the electronic timing equipment at the record attempt? None other than Col. Lindsay Lloyd, the man who, just a couple of weeks later, was to sponsor the Public Schools MCC race meeting at Brooklands (see above).

There are many things I don't know about all this! But I do like the (unproven) idea that our top photo shows Nesbit at Brooklands, maybe at the Public Schools MCC meeting in April 1922, just a couple of weeks after Pullin had broken the 100 mph barrier. Col. Lloyd was the president at the PSMCC, he also timed Pullin, maybe Herbert Robinson presented a trophy to the PSMCC where his son Nebit was a member? If so, everyone knew everyone.

Re-reading Roy's last post I see I've misunderstood: what if Nebit's fancy bike - a road-going S1 Douglas with twin carbs and an airbox, as ridden by Pullin, the fastest 500 in the country - did do 100 mph at Brooklands, but not with Nesbit on it? (I was puzzling the impossibility of young Nesbit doing 100 mph!)

Was Nesbit's racy S1 Pullin's record-breaker, sold to Herbert Robinson, Douglas agent in Cambridge for his son?

That would be a good story.

Cheers

Leon

[Red]

Hi Leon

That's an interesting theory. His grandson tells that he has spoken to his grandfather's younger sister, who is still alive, and by all accounts the family put pressure on Nesbit to give up racing. With a much faster bike they may have been concerned that he was likely to have a very serious accident. Was the bike then returned to road trim for Nesbit to continue using as a very fast road bike. Who knows?

Thanks to you all for your input in to this matter. It has given the grandson plenty of food for thought.

All the best

Roy

[Red]

More information from the grandson regarding his grandfather's road bike

Hello Roy sorry to keep on about the bike however on the back of the picture this is written on a postcard.  1923 Douglas 746cc
bore 86mm stroke 68mm. Max rev 12500. Electrically timed 1/2 Mile 101 mph.
Specially assembled and tuned.
Brooklands Weybridge.

So was this an S2 engine which has been bored out to 86mm and would it rev to 12,500?

Roy

[Dave]

A couple of larger views.

[EW-Ron]

12,500 rpm   ???? ????
That sounds astronomical, for the time ??
200 mph potential ...
(I would seriously question that rpms suggestion)

Thats a mean pair of handlebars. !

My, hasn't this thread evolved quickly.

[cardan]

...this is written on a postcard.  1923 Douglas 746cc
bore 86mm stroke 68mm. Max rev 12500. Electrically timed 1/2 Mile 101 mph.
Specially assembled and tuned.
Brooklands Weybridge.
So was this an S2 engine which has been bored out to 86mm and would it rev to 12,500?

"1923 Douglas 746cc". It could be, externally there is not much to see between a 348 (60.5x60, I think), 494 (68x68), or (83x68) 733 cc "Sports" Douglas. Pullin (and others) were racing the complete set of bikes during 1922. As noted above, the engine (at least) in Nesbit's bike is very special by having twin carburettors and an air box: think of this as a "works" Douglas engine.

"bore 86mm stroke 68mm". This would give 790cc. An S2 was usually listed as 83x68, which would give 736cc, even though the engine was always quoted as 733cc.

"Max rev 12500". No, about half that. According to 1923 Douglas racing advice, "Originally this engine [the 494 S1] was designed to run continuously at about 3,000 to 4,000 r.p.m. Since then the revolutions have been sent up, until to-day it "revs" for considerable periods at 6,000 r.p.m." The race engines that ran at 6,000 rpm used the RA-style central-boss piston, triple valve springs, etc.

"Electrically timed 1/2 Mile 101 mph". This almost certainly refers to Cyril Pullin's famous record on 23 March 1922 at Brooklands on the 494. Huge controversy at the time because no-one ever (more or less!) timed the 1/2 mile. Pullin took his twin-carb S2 to Paris late in 1922 and broke 1 km records at 98+ mph, average of both directions. So Pullin's S2 would have been capable of 100mph over a timed 1/2 mile, but I don't think he, or anyone else, did this. On the same day his 350 Sports averaged nearly 92 mph for the 1 km.
[Edit: Pullin's official speed was 100.06 mph, rather than "101".]

"Specially assembled and tuned. Brooklands Weybridge." Yes indeed: I'd guess that all twin-carb Douglas racing engines came out of Pullin's Brooklands workshop in this era.

"So was this an S2 engine which has been bored out to 86mm and would it rev to 12,500?" Since the 12,500rpm is in error, I'm not sure we should pay too much attention to the "86mm bore": it might be correct, or it might not. But it certainly suggests that Nesbit's Douglas was a "750" rather than a "500".

Stuff written on the back of photos is fascinating, but often a little off the mark. I wonder if Nesbit wrote on the back of the photo 20-or-more years on, with imperfect memory. The engine in his bike is special, and I think the notes on the back of the photo tend to confirm this, even if they mix in a  bit of Pullin's 500cc record. A 750 twin carb "works" engine?

Worth noting that "ER 427" on Nesbit's ohv Douglas is a Cambridge rego, which fits in with Nesbit's father Herbert being the Douglas agent in Cambridge.

Keep going Roy!

Leon

[Red]

Hi Leon / EW-Ron

Thanks again for all your help and expert knowledge. Clearly this has given the grandson of Nesbit Robinson plenty of food for thought and I am sure he must be very proud of his families involvement with the early days of motorcycling. Wouldn't it be nice if some of Nesbit's bikes were still around.

All the very best

Roy

[cardan]

Here's an interesting snippet from the Motor Cycle, 7 June 1923:

"At the Bury St. Edmund's Club Speed Trial, Mr. N. Robinson carried off FOUR FIRSTS FIRSTS FIRSTS FIRSTS making FASTEST TIME OF THE DAY SOLO AND SIDECAR."

The mention of "sidecar" suggests Nesbit was using the ohv S1/S2. Not sure of the date of the event.

Leon

[cardan]

Specially assembled and tuned.
Brooklands Weybridge.

Pullin had quite an enterprise going on at Brooklands: he could tune a 100 mph Douglas, or sell you a new 2 3/4.

Leon

[cardan]

One of the questions above was whether a Sports 750 (S2) was ever timed above 100 mph.

Indeed Rex Judd, riding Pullin's "736 cc" Douglas managed a flying km and a flying mile above 100 mph at Brooklands in November 1923. Judd set new World Records this day, but these were required to be the average of both directions (to remove the effects of wind and gradient). One direction only was above 100 mph (as was the case from Pullin's 500 cc flying half mile), but this was enough for a British Record, and the claim of "first 750 to exceed 100 mph".

Interesting that the full page advert to boast about Judd's records show him on an RA - don't publicize a superseded model!

Leon

[cardan]

The 736 Douglas ridden by Judd in November was likely the same bike ridden by Pullin at the Bois de Boulogne 26 Sept 1922: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53094050f

Here's his handlebar. Fantastic. I count 8 levers; 2 of these were for the variable jets favoured by Pullin to get better low-speed/acceleration performance. I don't think Nesbit's Sports had the variable main jets.

Leon

[Hutch]

The 736 Douglas ridden by Judd in November was likely the same bike ridden by Pullin at the Bois de Boulogne 26 Sept 1922: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53094050f
….
Leon

Could be Leon, but no proof either way found by me, so far, after looking for pictures of Judd and his Douglas during his record breaking runs at Brooklands at the end of 1923.

The attached picture has previously been posted on the forum (by yourself 😊)

.....
The photo comes from Joseph Bayley's book The Vintage Years at Brooklands, and shows Rex Judd on a bike that was "reputed to have been designed by Cyril Pullin" after winning a 350cc race at Brooklands on 7 April 1923 at 80.2 mph. Judd rode the bike on its debut at Kop Hill on 24 March 1923.

The frame is interesting - somewhat RA-ish, with what looks like twin rails underneath the tank. Pullin's "sports" engine with twin carbs, handle-bar controlled variable main jets, gearbox under the rear cylinder. Very nice.
....

As you stated, It is from Brooklands 7th April 1923 where Judd entered events for 350 and 500cc. This copy is from the Kop Hill facebook page;

https://www.facebook.com/kophillclimb/photos/a.157819367570281/5099385883413580/?type=3

So maybe Pullin developed the  "S2" engine on Judd's machine, but it was in a different frame to the machine ridden by Pullin in France in 1922? Not sure at all, and as usual we need more pictures! - I will keep looking when I have some spare time - a rarity these days!

Cheers

Hutch

[cardan]

Hi Ian,

Don't bother too much about "proof": racing motorcycles had a lot of "grandfather's axe" to them. Yes the bike would have been continuously developed, but there was more than one 750 Douglas racer doing the rounds in 1923. The key part to the story is that the bike on which Judd set records in Nov 1923 was "Pullin's", at least according to the AMAC boast advert, attached below. Funny that they claimed Judd's bike was fitted with an AMAC carb, whereas in fact it was fitted with two!

Re photos, take care too. The photo below shows Judd on an S2 racer in May 1923, in full Brooklands trim, with open low-level exhausts and (probably) no gears in the gearbox. It looks more-or-less identical to the S2 Pullin rode in Paris at the end of 1922. The photo of Judd used in the 22 Nov issue of the Motor Cycle after his World's Records shows him on an S2 racer in different trim: gears operated by change lever low on the right, and higher lever exhausts fitted with mufflers. Probably his Kopp Hill 750 which goes with the Pullin-designed 350 you posted. Kop Hill Climb in 1923 was, I think, Judd's first outing with Douglas, having come over from Norton. By the way, the shield between the cylinders on Freddie Dixon's Harley was reputed to hide twin carburettors: like Pullin he was keen on the idea, but liked to keep them out of sight.

Having done a bit of research, I'm nearly ready to guess where Nesbit Robinson's twin-carb S2 came from...

Leon

[cardan]

Back to Nesbit Robinson's twin-carburettor Sports Douglas.

After Pullin was timed at 100+ mph on his Sports, Bristol Douglas agent Coram advertised a special model guaranteed to do 80 mph, certified by Pullin from his base at the Brooklands track. https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27573#msg27573 This machine cost only 3 pounds more than a standard Sports, and so far as I can see had only one carburettor.

But there was another 80 mph Sports, offered by Alexanders, the Scottish Douglas agents. A.H. 'Alfie' Alexander was a long-time Douglas  speedster, and an advocate for the twin-carb bikes. In the 1922 TT he chose to use his old 1920 Sports fitted with twin carburettors (B&B in practice and AMAC in the race) while other Douglas riders were using single carburettor bikes (the Cox Atmos was tried). At the same time that Corams were advertising 80 mph Sports Douglases linked with Pullin, Alexanders in Scotland were advertising 80 mph Sports Douglases linked with Alfie. However the Alexander Douglases were considerably modified, with twin carburettors, and special cams and pistons.

Could Nesbit's bikes be one of these? Equally, Pullin could have supplied a twin-carb Sports from his Brooklands base although I can't find any advertising to support this.

Are there other photos of twin-carb Sports on the road? I suspect very few would have been sold.

Cheers

Leon