Author Topic: Douglas Racers in Spain (Read 16017 times)

Hutch · « **Reply #150 on:** 15 Dec 2023 at 02:05 »

Hi Leon,

Thanks for the identification and info. on Francisquet's Sunbeam. I admit I know virtually nothing about Sunbeam's!. I did a "2 second" glance at the web for information and found a reference to Francisquet and the OHC Sunbeam in 1925. I did notice the sump, but you are correct - it doesn't appear to be in the picture from Montlhery in 1927. So OHV it is!

Pity I cannot find more pictures of this event that may have the Spanish Duglii in them. It would have been interesting to see how Equipo Douglas from Madrid would have fared if they had up to date machines. Maybe the Sunbeam would have still been quicker but I think the margin would have been less?

Cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #151 on:** 15 Dec 2023 at 02:18 »

Here is a great shot of a motorcycle race at Terramar-Sitges. I'm not sure of the date and is probably not 1927!. I'm not sure of the origins of this picture but found it first on a website that was looking into history of the Terramar circuit - details of which I am unable to locate at the present time (I will have another look for it when I get the chance) and also on the Australian motorcycle news website (which seemed to indicate the picture was from 1923 - but I think it is most likely much later than that.

https://amcn.com.au/editorial/sitges-autodrome-spain/

The picture has the "look" of a A Herl picture (?) but have not confirmed that at all yet - so I will keep looking.

Cheers

Hutch

cardan · « **Reply #152 on:** 15 Dec 2023 at 03:52 »

It's a great shot - indeed art. I'd love to have been there.

There is something weird: the first two bikes have their rear stands still fitted, so I don't think we're in a race, and (is it my imagination?) the front rider has a pillion passenger??!!

I'd guess Cotton for the first bike, but that's a 50-percenter.

Leon

Dave · « **Reply #153 on:** 15 Dec 2023 at 05:49 »

Looks like the rider is tall and sitting back as far as possible.

graeme · « **Reply #154 on:** 17 Dec 2023 at 04:08 »

The front two look to be on Nortons. As for stands being fitted, I have seen plenty of pictures of bikes at the IOM in the 20s with rear stands fitted

cardan · « **Reply #155 on:** 17 Dec 2023 at 04:43 »

Yep, could be Nortons. At the TT in vintage years full road equipment was required, including the rear stand, but on a concrete saucer it was a case of dump anything you don't need.

I wonder if the front rider has a bad case of over-inflated leathers? He's a very funny shape!

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #156 on:** 17 Dec 2023 at 05:49 »

Thanks Dave for improving the picture - it is much clearer now!. Before you sharpened it up I was going to hazard a guess that the second bike was a Norton......Was not sure about the leading bike tho' but now I agree with Graeme and it appears to be a Norton as well. Appears to be a race to me as they are wearing racing numbers on their backs?

It looks to me like the Douglas coming 4th is about to "round up" the other riders i.e. appears he is going faster than them but alas we may never know (...and probably wishful thinking on my part!!). I still have not managed to find out when the picture was taken but could well have been 1926 or (against what I thought above) maybe April 1927. I need to go back through the entry lists for events at Terramar that had at least 2 Nortons and RA Douglii in them.

EDIT: Two Nortons and Douglas in the event at Terramar in September 1926 (https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=9283.msg38414#msg38414) - but there were also multiple Nortons in the event on 3rd April 1927!

I notice in the picture some gravel on the infield that appears to have been washed onto the track - a bit like rain might do?

The following picture was supplied by Javier (many thanks!) from Libro de oro del motociclismo Espanol. It is dated March 1927 and I thought the date was a typo but had a quick look in the Spanish Archives (https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital) and found a couple of interesting articles in La Nacion (Madrid) on 28 3 1927 and 4 4 1927. It appears the scheduled match race at Terramar was postponed for 8 days due to bad weather and rain. It was run on the 3rd April 1927 instead. It appears the weather cleared up almost straight away but some of the travellers from other parts of Spain stayed and had a "holiday" instead of returning home. It appears they managed to get a little practice in while they waited for the event. The picture shows Manolo Canto (is this the same person as Manuel canto whom I think was the sidecar passenger for Naure? He rode a Velocette in the 350cc event on the 3rd) and Alonso Martinez (whom I think is Gonzalo Alonso Martinez who rode a Scott and came 6th). The RA Douglas is possibly that of Mateos but the handlebars don't look quite right ? I Will have to have closer look.....

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #157 on:** 17 Dec 2023 at 06:00 »

The article from La Nacion 28 3 1927 on the Terramar - Sitges match race postponement. (Article from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

Well dome to Santos on his lap record at the Montlhery Short Course! EDIT: more on the return to Montlhery in a future post.

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #158 on:** 17 Dec 2023 at 06:12 »

Here is the report on the match race at Terramar run on the 3rd April 1927 from La Nacion 4 4 1927 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

Leon is correct - it would have been great to witness these races in period ! :-)

Maybe the bigger fuel tank on the OB helped out Naure just enough as Mateos was the quicker man!! :-)

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #159 on:** 17 Dec 2023 at 06:53 »

Quote from: Hutch on 17 Dec 2023 at 05:49

The picture shows Manolo Canto (is this the same person as Manuel Canto whom I think was the sidecar passenger for Naure? He rode a Velocette in the 350cc event on the 3rd) and Alonso Martinez (whom I think is Gonzalo Alonso Martinez who rode a Scott and came 6th). The RA Douglas is possibly that of Mateos but the handlebars don't look quite right ? I Will have to have closer look.....

-Hutch

Here is a comparison of Mateos's Douglas in the event on the 3rd April 1927 and the one that Canto is seated on in the picture Javier provided - looks to me to be the same machine?

Cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #160 on:** 18 Dec 2023 at 22:44 »

Now we are now really starting to see the end of Equipo Douglas. Vicente Naure has joined Velocette and Quinones appears to be concentrating on his aeronautical accessories activities. The word "Douglas" is not as prominent in the press now as it has been for a few years (interesting that in general the makes of riders bikes is not reported as much as before i.e. it is not only Douglas that doesn't get a mention. It is possible that Quinones had good connections with the Madrid press and this helped him promote Douglas as much as possible? we have seen this before with Bailey and the English Motorcycle Press). It seems that from about this time onwards the relationship between Quinones and Douglas has soured somewhat - more on that later.

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #161 on:** 18 Dec 2023 at 22:59 »

Quote from: Hutch on 18 Nov 2023 at 22:49

A kilometre sprint race was held by the Moto Club de Andalucía at Seville in July 1926. Edit: Oooops Big Error from me as this event was in 1927 not 1926 I had the picture in the wrong folder and did not check it - silly me!. I have removed the text and picture and will put it in the correct chronological order later in this thread

-Hutch

Yes I made a mistake with this one and had it in my 1926 year folder! Anyway - now putting it in the correct chronological order. To date these are the last pictures of a Douglas Racers I can find for 1927. It is of Baltasar Santos at a kilometre sprint race held at Seville in July 1927. Naure is racing a Velocette (I think for the first time).

Interesting the number of Douglas bikes entered in this event but alas only pictures of Santos found so far. Picture and text from La Nacion 20 7 1927 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #162 on:** 29 Dec 2023 at 04:26 »

This is the last picture of Douglas Racers that Javier and I have been able to find so far for 1927. It is a copy (albeit not a very good one) of the previous picture of Santos from La Union Ilustrada 4 8 1927 (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital).

From Clew’s “The Best Twin” we have the attached excerpt from page 96. I presume the Spanish Agent is Quinones. Early 1928 Cyril Pullin leaves Douglas to pursue the Ascot-Pullin, which was not a success. Did Douglas's refusal to help Quinones out with the single cylinder motorcycle sour relations between them? That appears possible given the sudden disappearance of Equipo Douglas.

Were there so many Douglas entrants for the kilometre sprint at Seville because Equipo Douglas was being sold off? Maybe to help finance Quinones venture with Pullin? Not sure at all....

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #163 on:** 29 Dec 2023 at 04:32 »

It is interesting to compare some features of Ascot-Pullin Engine design with the Douglas D.28, which I presume was also a Pullin design (e.g. OHV pushrod covers and general OHV rocker layout ) and also the Douglas TT “Twin Cam” machines designed by Dixon (e.g. the depth of the cylinder barrels spigots into the crankcase halves). (As stated above by Clew, Dixon left Douglas then returned after Pullin left so maybe he inherited some of the TT engine design from Pullin?)

Ascot-Pulling Engine pictures from;
https://www.motorkari.cz/clanky/veterani/ascot-pullin-500-sports-utility-britske-art-deco-od-viteze-tourist-trophy-46217.html
Picture of the D.28 from Leon’s post
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=6140.msg22651#msg22651

Dixon TT engine detail can be found in Doug’s post.

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5122.msg18557#msg18557

Cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #164 on:** 29 Dec 2023 at 04:45 »

Picture of drive side D.28 cylinder head for comparison with Ascot-Pullin (Picture from Doug's post;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2161.msg7819#msg7819)

Cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #165 on:** 29 Mar 2024 at 00:54 »

I have had some difficulty in finding out information on the Douglas motorcycle racing scene in Spain for 1928. Road racing events seem to have been greatly reduced from previous years or become regularity trials and as mentioned earlier in this thread, Equipo Douglas has been long abandoned by Quinones. Lack of suitable new machines appears to be part of the problem but as 1927 progressed Douglas appear to have taken their focus away from the EW production and started to produce some OHV models. I have not managed to work out any estimates of likely production numbers tho'. So far I have only managed to find one picture of a racing Douglas for 1928 and that is one we have seen before of Mateos - more on that later!

A little aside;

Leon made a good comment earlier in this thread;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=9283.msg37215#msg37215

that Australia had a much healthier number of racing models compared to Spain in the mid 20's. I have been wondering that possibly even Australia was not enjoying the same level of supply by 1927? A little bit of information comes from the Western Daily Mail (Bristol) 28 11 1927 describing a nasty accident at the gates of the Douglas between King and Price . It appears to me that Douglas were under some sort of pressure to get a new Douglas model - (whatever that was - D28, G28, F28 ,RA28 or a side valve model? - no real idea) to be ready to be urgently shipped to Australia.

Another snippet is this article about Len Jones success in South Australia on a 1924 machine from The Advertiser (Adelaide) 5 Jan 1928 - maybe new bikes were in short supply? (or of course possibly he couldn't afford a new one or particularly liked his old one etc). Gard's make the point that they have a new 600cc OHV model on display- maybe they were waiting for it for a while?

(not quite sure of the shipping times between UK and South Australia but hopefully the 600cc OHV model that Gard's had for sale was not the repaired one that King crashed! :-) )

I suspect 1927 was a lean year for the supply of OHV Douglas machines internationally - not just for Spain.

...end of aside and back to the main thread in the next post.

Cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #166 on:** 29 Mar 2024 at 01:38 »

I had previously noticed on the front cover of the 1929 DT parts catalogue that there was the coat of Arms of the King of Spain. easy to miss and it was only by accident I noticed it. I had a copy of this catalogue but none of the other Douglas ones from around this period and was going to mention it as an aside on this thread when we get to 1929 (...which won't be long...!).

I contacted Doug Kephart to see if he could help out with more information and he kindly went through his Douglas literature and the earliest reference to the Spanish Royal family he has found so far is from 1928. There are of course, connections between the British and Spanish Royal family's through the wife of King Alfonso XIII, Victoria Eugenie Julia Ena of Battenberg, who was Queen Victoria's grand-daughter.

I thought that maybe the Royal Spanish connection was not that important, but as it appears to have started in 1928 and due to the political turmoil in Spain (and the possible low popularity of the King (?)) at the time it may have had implications with respect to Quinones role as Douglas Agent for Spain? Not sure, but for most of 1928 Quinones was still the Douglas Agent, and even had advertisements in other periodicals in Spain than what we have seen previously in Gran Vida (see advert from Aerea (Madrid) 4 1928. Later, in October 1928, he stopped the usual Gran Vida last page spread and started advertising his role as Spanish Agent for AJS. More on that in my next post. I have not found any other mentions of any Douglas Agents in Spain after this date, Quinones or otherwise but will keep looking. it is possible that Quinones continued in this role even tho' he chose not to advertise the fact? (Adverts from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital)

I have also dug up some other Royal connections relating to Spanish Motorcycle racing - in particular dirt track racing / speedway and will post them when we get to 1929.

Many thanks to Doug K. for supplying the information re the Spanish Royal Family and the Douglas catalogues.

-Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #167 on:** 29 Mar 2024 at 02:17 »

Just continuing on the Quinones Douglas / AJS thread a little bit more, in the December edition of Gran Vida (from https://www.bne.es/es/catalogos/hemeroteca-digital) we have this article on Z. Mateos and what appears to be also an advertisement for AJS. It is of note that the word "Douglas" does not appear to be anywhere in the text ! The picture is of Mateos on a Douglas (we have seen a similar one before) but no comment as to that is what marque it is in the article.

Is it deliberate that no mention is made of Douglas? Was Quinones very angry with Douglas or just trying to promote his new brand AJS?. Was there a reason why the relationship went sour or as stated before was the connection between Douglas and the Spanish Royal Family an issue? I have not found the answer to this and probably will not!. Maybe Quinones was just being an astute business man?

-Hutch