Photos of TT Douglas racers in Australia

[cardan]

I suspect this thread will be brief - at least in comparison with its companion thread on RA/RW/TW racers. I didn't count the RA photos I dug out, but there were probably about 70 or so. The TT model Douglas appeared in the Douglas catalogues about 1926, nominally replacing the RA. However as I noted in the RA thread, it seems that RAs were produced in 1926, 1927 and 1928 when it was replaced as a dirt track/speedway machine by the DT. The RA was originally designed as a road racer, and won the Isle of Man senior TT at its debut in 1923. While we had a few road races in Australia in the 1920s, by the mid 20s most of our racing was on dirt or on concrete speedways. As the RA evolved into the TT for 1926, the motorcycle racing fraternity in Australia was likely unimpressed - certainly the improved brakes were not likely to be highly valued!

In summary, my search for photos of racy Douglas motorcycles in Australia turned up 70+ RA photos but only 4 TT photos. I wonder if the two models were here in about the same ratio? Most of the TTs here were 500cc, but the motor and (I believe) the frame of a 350cc TT has survived, so there was at least one Junior machine.

The first photo shows Gus Clifton on the TT that he raced at the Deagon track in Queensland in 1928.

Leon

[cardan]

We saw Bill Conoulty mounted on a range of RAs, which he campaigned after running Sports Models for a number of years. Given the variety of bikes he used, its likely that he was well supported by the trade: Williams Bros in Sydney. Here he is on a TT model, looking anything but catalogue spec. The handlebars are "unusual", the front brake drum appears on the left, and there is an oil tank and drip feed on the right of the frame. Presumably this is in addition to the usual sump and mechanical pump feed - to keep the drive chain lubricated?

We'll see the front drum brake on the left in other photos - any ideas?

The photo comes from the James Flood Book of Motorcycling in Australia.

Leon

[cardan]

This photo appeared in the thread on Douglas RAs https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5077.0 . I've cropped off the RA in this version so we can get a better view of the other two bikes, both of which are likely TTs.

Details of the bike on the left are unclear, but we can see enough to suggest TT. The front fork is the side-spring style used by the TT (the RA, OB, OC and DT all used the centre-spring fork), and if there is a front brake it is a drum on the right, again standard TT practice. The handlebar layout is very similar to the Conoulty bike shown in the previous post. Could it be the same bike, with the front drum on the (usual) right side? What is that "object" in front of the rider's left shin?

The bike on the right has the classic lines of the TT. Unlike the RA, the TT had the gearbox mounted on the frame near the seat lug, an arrangement that gives a top chain line which is usually almost horizontal. On the RA the top run of the chain is angled down at the front. Extreme sprocket choices will change things a little...

Date and location unknown.

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

The mysterious object seems to be some sort of container. If you look at the machine of the right, it too seems to have some sort of container over the front cylinder. One should be able to see right through the frame to the fella's dark trousers beyond, but there is something of light color and rectangular blocking the view. Exact purpose unknown, but not part of the standard TT fittings.

By the way, the OC front forks were very similar to the TT, and used the same dual extension springs. The other models mentioned used the central compression spring.

In the previous photo of Bill Conoulty, perhaps he reversed the front wheel to even out the wear. Apparently he was not concerned about disabling of the front brakes.

-Doug

[cardan]

Thanks Doug.

Re containers: I wonder if we haven't a theme developing. Conoulty's chain oiler, the two that you comment on, and , if I'm not mistaken, even the top photo shows a container in the gap between the rear stays - possibly another chain oiler.

Re brakes: Generally over-rated and not of much interest to Australian riders.

Re OC forks: Of course, my mistake. I've even seen an illustration, no doubt from Douglas literature, that shows the "TT/OC engine". Perhaps the two models had more in common than just the fork.

So on to the last TT photo I have come across, and not a very good quality one at that. Luckily it shows Bill Conoulty on what is almost certainly the same bike on which we see him above. I'm not sure what the situation was with brakes at Maroubra. I believe they were not allowed at the Motordrome in Melbourne, but Maroubra was a larger track (taking cars, for example) so maybe brakes were allowed if not used. Perhaps this explains the reversed front wheel, maybe to remind the rider that the brake was not connected?

I have one other photo that may show TTs in Australia, but beyond that I need help. Does anyone have other photos? Based on the small number of photos, few Douglas TT Models made it out here. I wonder how many. I've encountered the remains of three engines (two 500s and a 350)...

Leon

[cardan]

OK, I've run out of Australian photos of the TT Model IOM Douglas. But I do have this one, that was published in Exhaust Notes (VMCCV) 30-odd years ago. It's most likely one of the Arthur Forecast photos, copied by Dave Dumble. Sorry I don't have names or location. The bike on the left looks like it could be TT-based (or maybe SW5), but it's hard to make out much detail of the other, beyond its Harley Davison front fork. Any comments welcome.

The up-coming Australian Douglas Rally - early November 2014 in Bathurst NSW - has a racy theme. Perhaps we should assume "team clobber": Douglas rugby tops and leather jodhpurs. Those of us with class aspirations could go for a neck tie, presumably in Douglas tartan!! I wonder what colour the tops were? The Sydney-based Douglas Club was discussed in the RA thread.

Leon

[Looking closer, is that an RA brake lug on the left front fork leg? I suppose they could be RA based... Hard to say.]

[cardan]

With drum brakes front and rear, a gently sloping petrol tank, and a frame-mounted gearbox, I'm relaxed about identifying Fred Kirkpatrick's bike as a TT Douglas. Presumably Fred haled from Western Australia, and since the isolation of West from East was pretty profound at the time the bike was likely a "WA local". Any other photos of it Rob?

The year was 1928.

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

Regarding the 'team clobber' post above, there is indeed a vestigial lug for the front brake on the left-hand machine. Yet I cannot make out a third spoke flange on the hub to indicate RA origins. However the newsprint image is not high-resolution. Likely it is an RA, with possibly a OB or DT hub. The arguments against it being a 1926 onward I.o.M. model is the brake anchorage would be on the other side and the brake drum was laced into the wheel, making it difficult to dispense with. So the forks and wheel would have had to be exchanged to convert a '26 TT.

Alternately it could be an OB model that has gone racing. Not enough of the petrol tank visible to be positive, but there is a hint on the one-piece rocker oiler above the front cylinder head, as used on the OB and earlier models.

One might also say the same for an OC, but like the '26 they had the front brake on the right-hand side.

-Doug 

[cardan]

I can do better now. Carry on...

[Doug]

Leon,

Yes, that is better. I am thinking more and more the machine on the left is RA, but the wheel has been replaced by some other make. The spokes are laced to the rim well out towards the bead, compared to what you see on Dougie rims. An airbox can be seen, and it has the rounded shape of the RA. A TT would be vertical on the forward face. Also there looks to be a flip-top filler cap visible in the appropriate location, though this could be part of the riding apparel sitting on top of the petrol tank. On the '26 TT this filler would be a little further forward.

The machine on the right has the spare spark plugs stored at the forward edge of the petrol tank, making it either an RA or 1926-28 TT. The front wheel is no help, as it and the forks are from another make. In this instance it is hard to say, but I am going to place a bet on RA again. The front of the tank does not look high enough to be the '26 TT petrol tank. 

-Doug

[cardan]

"The front wheel is no help, as it and the forks are from another make."

Come on Doug! Name it: Harley Davidson. Most people in your neck of the woods would recognise the forks and front wheel, but not the bike.

Yes I agree that they are likely both RA based; more highly modified than in any of our other photos. Indeed the oiling box for the front rockers on the bike on the right is the "vertical fins all round" style that is more S1/S2 than RA.

Leon

[Doug]

Leon,

'Harley-Davidson', what are those?   

Actually I figured it might be a trick question, since several makes used the Castle type front forks. Just my luck to miss the shape of a grease nipple that would declare them off a Brough-Superior, and be pounced upon. No thanks, I will stick to Dougies!

The rocker oiling reservoirs are very similar between the S1/S2 and the RA; possibly identical to that on the early RA. There was a transition to a larger diameter rocker spindle at some point during the RA development that might prevent them from being fully interchangeable, but I do not think there would be a externally visible difference that would enable one to determine which was which. Indeed the entire cylinder head was very similar from the S1/S2 to the RA, but if you have a side view a subtle difference in the shape of the rocker perch will allow positive identification.

From the front quarter, the bifurcated front down tubes of the S1/S2 frame usually allows it to be eliminated from the later, full duplex frames.

-Doug

[cardan]

Over the last couple of years, I've done a lot of research on racing Douglas motorcycles in Australia during the 1920s, and Rudge (boo, hiss) road racers of the early 1930s. One thing has become very clear: in the late 1920s in Australia there was very little motorcycle racing on road, or road-like, circuits. Dirt track was the game, and even the banked tracks at the Motordrome in Melbourne and Maroubra in Sydney couldn't compete. It wasn't until 1931 that road racing became a well organised and well supported activity, with the Australian Grand Prix and the Australian Tourist Trophy alternating between Phillip Island in Victoria and Bathurst in New South Wales. By then, Douglas had no competitive machinery for road racing. The RA and TT Douglases were 1920s motorcycles.

With no road racing around, some of the small number of TT models out here took to the dirt. Here we see Reg Applebee on his "dirt-track-ised" TT at the Speedway Royal in Adelaide in the late 1920s. Large drum brake on the right, sump gone, front brake gone, unknown external-link front fork, smaller tank...

Photo from the State Library of South Australia.

Leon

[cardan]

No info on this one, which came from an unknown source as a single photocopy sheet on which is written "Paddy Dean 1926-6 IOM Douglas".

Leon

[Hutch]

Leon,

I was looking through stuff on the web and came across this picture and thought it looked familiar! looks like the picture dates from 19th Feb 1927 (or shortly afterwards as it looks like a promo shot) ?

It was in this website;

http://edinburghspeedway.blogspot.com/2014/12/australian-national-championship.html

Cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

The event as reported in the Maitland Daily Mercury Monday 21 Feb 1927

-Hutch

[cardan]

Hi Ian,

Funny that the trophy has been painted out in my version of the photo - you'd think it was a toolbox on the top bar of the TT.

I'm not sure what the story is with Dean's bikes: most photos from 1926 (when he burst on the scene) until 1928 show him on RAs. In Jan 1927 he acquired a new "6 h.p." Douglas, maybe the TT.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Here's Les Bailey with Billy Conoulty on the TT DOuglas, earlier, in July 1926.

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7014.msg27601#msg27601

Leon

[Hutch]

Very Interesting Leon,

The TT shown in your post in the S.L.Bailey thread, ridden by Conoulty at Maroubra in July 1926, which lead to him winning a Golden Helmet, was a 1926 OC-TT imported by Les Bailey. I assume it would have been 600cc when imported, but is described as 3 1/2 HP in at least one newspaper article. (Edit -  OC-TT avail. in 3 1/2 and 4 HP so I guessed wrong! - the only picture i have seen of an OC-TT engine appears to have 600cc barrels on it) As you stated the OC-TT appears to have been owned by Bailey (or possibly a Douglas agent?)

Dean was reported to have achieved just over72 mph at the Newcastle speedway for (edit) two one laps (i.e. a 1/2 mile) on a 6 HP Douglas (I guess 76mm bore by 82mm stroke for 744cc?) - possibly an "all powers" world record for one 1/2 mile dirt track at the time, but I am still looking for the actual date when he did this.

(Edit: Picture from The Sunday Times same similar as the one in Leon's reply No. 4 above - different number of hats in air!
also in Leon's reply No. 1, Conoulty appears to be wearing the Gold Helmet - something I missed before!)

-Ian

[Hutch]

More on the introduction of the OC-TT in 1926.

[Hutch]

Leon,

Here is a similar shot of Conoulty on the OC-TT at Maroubra to your post in your Les Bailey thread, but at an earlier attempt at the Golden Helmet. No Les Bailey in picture, so maybe the result wasn't quite good enough! :-). In the successful attempt, Conoulty's machine carries the identifier "N", here it carries "X" and in the Flood book picture it is "B".

cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

Seems the reason I couldn't find the event in which Paddy Dean achieved the 72.3 MPH lap at Newcastle Showgrounds was that it was just a timed lap - maybe a record attempt?  Date still unknown but it was sometime prior to July 1929.

-Hutch

[Hutch]

I'm not sure what the story is with Dean's bikes: most photos from 1926 (when he burst on the scene) until 1928 show him on RAs. In Jan 1927 he acquired a new "6 h.p." Douglas, maybe the TT.

I'm also not sure what the story is with Dean's bikes either  Leon ! - its hard to find much information at all, in particular period pictures. I did come across this article from The Daily Telegraph 4 June 1927 listing competitors in the up-coming Penrith Speedway events on the King's Birthday (long weekend) Holiday on 6th July. A few of the events were handicaps, hence the variety of machines in some events. What is interesting is that the capacities of the machines are listed  (a lot of articles on motorcycle racing around this time sometimes do not even state the motorcycle makes competing, let alone any other information!)

We have Conoulty of Douglii of capacity 348, 499 and 660cc and Dean on Douglii of 496 and 784cc (!!).

A quick look at Clew's "The Best Twin" shows that Douglas did manufacture an OHV engine of 784cc - the "NE" prefix. This is described as 784cc, long stroke, competition work. This seems to date from circa 1924 and if it used a stroke of 82mm would have a bore of 78mm. (I have a scrap 750 barrel and by eye 78mm would be possible.....just!).

Is this the "4-8" Douglas that is reported to have been superseded by Dean's new 6HP machine in January 1927? ("4-8" I assume means 600-999cc?). Dean was entered in the all powers handicap race and maybe used the "old" 4-8 RA instead of the new 6hp to help fool the handicapper ? I assume Dean would probably have tried a few tricks to improve his cause.....in the end he was given a 3 second start over Benstead in heat 3.

So how did Dean fare? Well seems he blew or shed a rear tyre and that was that! By all accounts he was having a real go at Benstead tho'!

cheers

Hutch

[cardan]

Hi Ian,

Designations like "4-8" usually referred to the nominal and actual horsepower, in an obtuse kind of way. For example the 1000cc Harley Davidson was referred to as "7-9". In the Douglas case, "4-8" was probably a nominally "4 hp" engine (600cc) that produced "8 hp". Around this time nominal hp references were replaced with displacement, and British makers went to the "penny-a-cc" designation - a 596cc bikes became 5.96 hp (rather than the old 4 hp).

Interesting about the 784cc NE engine - it would be fun to find a crankcase to see what it looked like.

Cheers

Leon

[Hutch]

Good point on the HP ratings Leon. Those original ratings may have been correct for a side valve engine  pre 1910 but the system was way out of date by 1927. That's what made me think they were using a different system by then - also 4-8 was not a combination I had come across before. The motorcycle community doesn't appear to have  kept pace with the automobile community in this case where manufacturers combined the RAC hp rating with the actual hp. I think a 1926 Douglas OC 600cc ohv engine produces about 17 hp so maybe 4-8 should really be 4-17 or 4/17 depending on how you write it.

So as you say, Dean's bike described  in Jan 1927 as 4-8 was a probably 600cc at the time (or at least some time in its history) and not the later 784.....but who knows what engine it actually had in it at any given time! If I really want to confuse myself I will look into the Dendy-Marshall / A.C.A. hp rating system as bedtime reading (sure to cure insomnia!).

I don't know if Dean had an actual NE engine or it was another OHV engine converted to be this capacity. I'm sure a NE OHV engine would be a very rare beast tho'....

cheers

Hutch

[cardan]

I suspect many of the Douglas racing bikes and engines in NSW in the 1920s actually belonged to Williams Bros, which might go a way towards explaining why riders popped up on different bikes all over the place. I love it that Billy Conoulty appeared occasionally on his old S1 racer long after it should have been pensioned off - he might have owned that one!

784cc is a strange size for a motor - enough to make it ineligible for 750cc events yet not big enough to make it competitive in unlimited events on fast tracks like Brooklands. It might have been someone's idea for attempting track records at the new concrete track at Maroubra, which was a fast track but the corners were too sharp for really fast bikes and cars. In 1925 the famous 300 h.p. FIAT race car "Mephistopheles" was brought out to race at Maroubra, but common sense prevailed and the car was taken home again.

I don't think I've come across a reference to the 784cc Douglas raced in the UK?

Leon

[Hutch]

Leon,

I can only think that the "funny" 784cc size was a result of Douglas trying to get as big an aero engine, as cheaply as possible, out of the existing OHV motor with a 82mm stroke, for light aircraft use. Early competitions for light aircraft in the mid 1920's found the 500cc Douglas OHV to be (dangerously) underpowered and they very quickly switched to (slightly less dangerous) 600cc and then 750cc (still pretty dodgy in my opinion!).

The hole in the OHV crankcase to take the barrel "spigot" is just over 81.7 mm and as the piston skirt does go into the crankcase at BDC, I think the thickness of the cast iron barrel spigot would become too thin if the bore was increased too much towards this figure. (Also the bore of the spigot hole in the crankcase cannot be increased too far due to the PCD of the barrel studs, leading to a weakness there).

784cc would be 78mm bore but Douglas Aero Engines did go to 79mm bore with the Sprite engine in the 1930's and a little over 803cc. These engines were relatively slow revving engines compared to their motorcycle cousins - so maybe things could be pushed a little further? - no idea. 803cc would seem to be the practical upper limit for the OHV engine.

So was the "NE" originally destined for the race track or a light aircraft - I have no idea! I have not found any reference to date on any 784cc OHV Douglas engines apart from Clew TBT and the newspaper reference above. Maybe Bailey knew of an old big OHV prototype engine mouldering away in a corner of the experimental department at Douglas and thought "....maybe I could use that at Maroubra.....hhhmm...." Dunno!

I wonder how many of those 45 quid Sprite engines found their way into Duggies - even if the cylinder fins are the wrong way around ?!

cheers

Hutch

[Hutch]

PS

The latter Sprites had a different crankcase to the earlier ones but possibly used the same barrels and heads. The general design (with the twin magnetos sticking out) would render them unsuitable for a for aft Douglas - so my comment was a bit silly :-)

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=1849.msg8944#msg8944

-Hutch

[Hutch]

Looks like Douglas were out of the picture in ultralight competitions held in Britain during the 1920's by about 1924. But Douglas powered aircraft were still being flown competitively in the continent and a few 750cc planes, such as the UDET Kolibri at the 1924 Rohn contest did reasonably well. Some of these planes appear to still be around in 1925. The 750cc engines were still deemed to be underpowered and overweight as stated in a few technical articles on these ultra light planes at the time. So was the "NE" engine a aero competition engine rather than a motorcycle one in an attempt to address the power to weight issue ? Not sure and cannot find any reference to a 784cc Douglas engine being used (in Flight Magazine for e.g.) yet. By 1926-27 maybe these engines would have been obsolete tho' and looking for a new home in the far flung corners of the commonwealth (in typical Douglas fashion :-) )? Don't know!!

-Hutch