Douglasmotorcycles.net
General => General Douglas Discussion => Topic started by: ianpenrose on 26 Sep 2020 at 10:49
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Ian Penrose from Western Australia.
I have a 2 3/4hp Douglas motor which appears to have the flywheel side crankcase cast in Sydney Australia. It has the 2 piece timing cover which I think indicates it is 1913/14. There is no engine number.The two pieces of the timing cover are made of brass and the timing gear axles project through the cover and the securing nuts are on the outside. These axles are longer than those in my 1923 motor to allow them to pass through the cover. There is no diamond shaped brace because the cover acts as the support. Does anyone have any knowledge of Star Sydney producing castings for the Douglas. Has anyone else come across a brass timing cover?
[fix image aspect ratio. 26Sep20 -Doug, Site Moderator]
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Brass timing cover
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Hi Ian,
Extremely interesting. The draft of the new edition of "A to Z of Australian-made Motor Cycles" lists about 530 different makes, including Imperial Star, Malvern Star, Red Star, Seven Star, Silver Star and Western Star as well as noting that a couple of "Star" motorcycles were registered c1914. The problem is that there were "Star" motorcycles built in the UK (Wolverhampton) in 1898-1905 and again 1912-1914, so mention of a "Star" is hard to interpret. I don't think "Star Sydney" is linked to any of these.
I suspect that your crankcase is not a replacement part, but instead someone's attempt to manufacture a complete engine, or perhaps a motorcycle, based on the Douglas. Blatant copying during the first war was a bit of a thing; for example we had a copy of the Sturmey Archer CS gearbox made here in Adelaide branded Nexus, or there was a copy of the Swiss MAG engine built in Melbourne branded Monarch.
Let me look into "Star". In the meantime, can you add anything to the story?
Cheers
Leon
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The only thing I can add to the story is that it came with a job lot of parts on EBay from NSW. I spotted the unusual Star Sydney casting and the early 2 part timing cover so thought it was worth bidding on. They were apparently the leftovers from building a TS but the seller had no more information on its history.
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Hi Ian,
Tricky one - nothing for certain yet. Another possibility is that it was built as a stationary engine. My first step in chasing these things is to identify a manufacturer using the brand. In this case there were Star stationary engines (all larger oil engines, and imported), imported Star cars, and unexplained things, like the attached advert from Adelaide (1000 miles from Sydney) for a new 4 1/4 hp 3-speed chain-drive Star motorcycle in 1918. I'm 95% sure this is a 1914-pattern Star from Wolverhampton, which was a big lump of a thing, and nothing to do with Star Sydney. Presumably we are looking for a 2 3/4 hp Star.
Any other weird bits in there? Is the gearbox case real Douglas?
Cheers
Leon
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The stationary engine possibility ties in with a reply I just received on the Facebook Douglas Motorcycle group. Neville said he has a 2 3/4hp Douglas style stationary motor with Randwick 1916 cast into the crankcase and that Randwick is a suburb of a Sydney.
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Hi Ian,
This could be the "Randwick" engine referred to in your last post?
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2218.msg8041#msg8041
There might be a link between the Sydney "Star" engine and the R.A.N. stationary engine?? i.e. the Star engine preceded the R.A.N. one....not sure at all.....
Edit:- In 1917 the R.A.N. was promoting inventions to assist the war effort, is this how the R.A.N. generator came about (but earlier in 1916) ?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152538433?searchTerm=%22R.A.N%22%20invention%20board
2nd Edit:- And i just realised, of course the Navy would have had access to Douglas, Marconi and possibly Bosch generator sets to copy......
cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian. Thanks for that information and links. Makes fascinating reading. Cheers Ian P
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There might be a link between the Sydney "Star" engine and the R.A.N. stationary engine??
Maybe, but the RAN engine was clearly a stationary engine, wheres the Star is a copy of the Douglas motorcycle engine. One of the highest Australian-content motorcycles was the Quirks Mona, built in Sydney. It was a fore-and-aft flat twin with locally-built motor, gearbox and frame, and in production there was no real similarity beyond that with the Douglas. The engine mounting etc was very different. However the prototype, shown below, made in 1913, was very Douglasy. I can't find a good home in Sydney for the Star name (usually it would be the Star Cycle Works, the Star Motor Co., or whatever) so one possibility is that Quirks were thinking of calling their machine the Quirks Star, before finalising their design and name.
Still looking.
Leon
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However the prototype, shown below, made in 1913, was very Douglasy
If you ignore that the flywheel seems to be on the opposite side.
At first I thought maybe the neg had been flipped, but the numberplate is readable.
Anyone know where in Randwick this RAN establishment may have been. ?
I've lived in Randwick, and while there may have been some sort of barracks, nothing much springs to mind.
Mind, this was quite some decades later. Randwick isn't beachside either, so anything Navy would have been landlocked.
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Ian, Leon and EW-Ron,
I don't know where I got the feeling that the "Star" engine was linked to a stationary engine use other than it doesn't have the mounting stud hole for the primary chain guard on the flywheel side crankcase half (which might not be a bad thing as most of the ones I have are stripped!), what appears to be some mystery filled holes on the timing side crankcase half and there looks like a filler for the oil on the lower timing cover(?) and I have yet to find reference to a "Star" motorcycle based in Sydney with this engine (...still looking :-) )? So I thought, maybe the engine wasn't destined for a bike?
But one feature that the "Star" does have is better support of the cam followers, idler gear and cam than that the 1912 Douglas. From 1913 onward Douglas had the diamond pressed steel support for these.
So is there a possibility that the engine was an attempt to rectify this deficiency in the 1912 Douglas 2 3/4hp and maybe dates it to around that time?
-Ian
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Leon and EW-Ron,
Off topic....maybe... Quirks Mona....The Sun 1st May 1915. Flywheel side..... :-) Picture flipped or not?...don't know....as different bike to the above.
-Ian
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One of the highest Australian-content motorcycles was the Quirks Mona, built in Sydney. It was a fore-and-aft flat twin with locally-built motor, gearbox and frame, and in production there was no real similarity beyond that with the Douglas. The engine mounting etc was very different. However the prototype, shown below, made in 1913, was very Douglasy.
Instead of "Douglasy", I guess I needed to add "with the Douglasy engine mounted in a Douglasy method, but reversed in the frame". Unfortunately in the pile of Quirks Mona stuff I have I don't have a photo of the other side of the prototype to see how Douglasy that looks.
Leon
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If you merely fitted a Douglas engine "reversed in the frame" your bike would run backwards !?
Thats a serious change of internal engine design to work ...
Interesting that the production version didn't persist with the mirror image look.
Anyone got any inkling of an address with this Randwick engine. ?
I see that Randwick Racecourse had wartime military encampments,
but that sounds a little temporary.
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EW-Ron,
Only a very slim lead on where in Randwick the R.A.N. stationary engine may have been built so far., if indeed that was where it was made.
Assuming it was made at a government establishment (and it may not have been) and given the equipment required to produce it, including electrical components, then maybe the Randwick Tramway Workshop? It was closely associated with the Everleigh Railway Workshop in Redfern so they would have had access to a lot of resources to produce castings, forgings, machining etc. They would have also been available and willing to do war effort projects.
http://www.historyofsydney.com.au/randwick-tram-workshop/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eveleigh_Railway_Workshops
cheers
Ian
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Leon and EW-Ron,
There were a couple of Quirk's Mona projects that were auctioned by Webb's in NZ a few years ago.
Webb's website (don't say that to quickly!) had a few detailed pictures from memory, but have not located them yet - some of them are here on the Barnstormer's website tho';
http://www.barnstormers.co.nz/879/webbs-motorcycle-auction-31-march-2012/
cheers
Ian
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Re the prototype Quirk's Mona. Ernest Francis (the man in the photo) was based in Melbourne, and his Douglasy engine (in which the cams were no-doubt arranged so that it would run in the correct direction) was "locally" (presumably Melbourne) made - so probably unrelated to Star Sydney (although Quirk's had their factory in Sydney, where the production bike was manufactured). I only mentioned it as an example of an Australian-made motorcycle engine based on the Douglas layout, as the Star Sydney may have been.
Leon
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The motor would not have to run in reverse if the change in direction came from the gearbox.
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Hi Ian,
Indeed, but the prototype Mona had a simple counter-shaft in the frame that takes the drive from chain on the right to belt on the left, with clutch and gears in the back hub, so the crankshaft rotates in the usual direction (cw, viewed from the right side). But not the direction a Douglas engine (which this isn't) would run if fitted to the frame with its flywheel on the right. All (!?) veteran/vintage motorcycle gearboxes preserve direction of rotation.
Of course without knowing the application for the Star, we can only guess it ran in the Douglas direction. If you have the original cams, you can verify.
Cheers
Leon
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Hi Leon
Your comment about cams sent me back to the box of bits to see what was there. To my surprise, on close examination of one of the cans I found “ Star Engr Co” and below that “Bondi Jun”. Compared to the Dougkas equivalent it has a longer duration for both the inlet and exhaust valves.
Cheers
Ian
[Edit image orientation. 28Sep20 Doug, Admin]
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The crankshaft also has the “Star Engr Bondi Jun” marking
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Brilliant.
Also confusing, because the Star Engineering Co was the company in Wolverhampton that produced Star cars and Star motorcycles, mentioned above. And because Star cars were used to transport Marconi radio sets during the war...
In this case the Star Engineering Co traded at 121 Oxford St, Waverley, NSW, certainly in 1920-22. These days 121 Oxford St lists as Bondi Junction, on the way from Sydney to the world famous (??) Bondi Beach. Pronounced "bon-die".
About 3 km from Randwick, so perhaps a link between the wartime RAN Randwick stationary engine and the Star Sydney "motorcycle" engine. Is the Star is later than we think?
Leon
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Wow,
Star Engineering were in Bondi Junction at least as early as 1919, plus some names of the proprietors from Dun's gazette of NSW
-Hutch
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Yes indeed, but it wasn't until mid-1923 that the address changed from 121 Oxford St, Waverley to 121 (and later 123) Oxford St, Bondi Junction, so I think we're looking 1923 or later for the origins of the engine. [Edit: Sorry I missed the Bondi Junction in Ian's 1919 snippet. All pre-1923 adverting says Waverley.]
Star were "agents for Douglas" in 1923, and would supply "spare parts for modern and old models". Now I don't think the Star engine was built as Douglas spare parts (why would you bother?). I wonder if one of the partners had a Douglas, fitted with a Star Sydney motor - perhaps with Star on the tank - as his transport and advertising? Most Australian motorcycle manufacturing had collapsed by 1923, so I doubt there was any plan for commercial manufacture.
Very interesting indeed.
Leon
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This is getting very intriguing.Now we find of the proprietors of Star Engineering has the surname Douglas.
I don’t see that the change from Waverley to Bondi Junction in advertising indicated the engine was built after 1923. Waverley Council is the Council area which includes Bondi Junction. As a local example here in WA if I started a business a few years ago in William St north of the railway line I would have advertised as William St PERTH. Now with Northbridge becoming known and popular I would advertise as being in Northbridge. Northbridge is within the PERTH City Council. Also it appears the company was registered as being in Bondi Junction back in 1919.
I have found another timing gear has the Star marking.
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This is getting very intriguing.Now we find of the proprietors of Star Engineering has the surname Douglas.
I don’t see that the change from Waverley to Bondi Junction in advertising indicated the engine was built after 1923. Waverley Council is the Council area which includes Bondi Junction. As a local example here in WA if I started a business a few years ago in William St north of the railway line I would have advertised as William St PERTH. Now with Northbridge becoming known and popular I would advertise as being in Northbridge. Northbridge is within the PERTH City Council. Also it appears the company was registered as being in Bondi Junction back in 1919.
I have found another timing gear has the Star marking.
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The "Star" is looking more sporting than my initial guess of possibly being for stationary engine use :-) .....from The Daily Telegraph 28 Oct 1914 we have a F.R. Pulford joining the Motorcycle Club of N.S.W.
Is F.R. Pulford the same person as in F.R. Pulford & Sons who became a National Air Compressor business Pulford Air and Gas?.........very interesting !
https://www.manmonthly.com.au/features/100-years-making-story-growth/
EDIT:- .....hhmmm a "Star" air compressor......?? (just joking as there looks to be a magneto drive.....but then again Doug K. did find that aircraft starter single cylinder Douglas......
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=6043.msg22227#msg22227 :) :) )
-H
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Just found this on Trove from The Co-operator (Sydney) April 2nd 1914 Staff Changes and Promotions - spooky coincidence.
-Hutch
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From The Daily Telegraph 15th January 1910
-Hutch
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Well this discussion has come a long way in a short time.
Can we find a photo of this shop ?
Possibly not, except within the family.
And such snapshots are often tough to find in later years.
Except maybe in trade magazines or motorcycle related articles ?
I wonder what Elec Eng was like in WW1, had they invented protons and electrons yet ?!
Can we find how long they kept going for, or did motorcycles as a business/interest only last a short while.
Often this info is conveyed with the business address changing to a different role.
If Mr Pullford resigned in 1914, he may have gone off to war ?
As many did.
A quick look at Trove (newspapers) shows that a Mr Collins in 1932 was selling corsets etc out of 121 Oxford St,
and in 1949 was the Red Rose Restaurant. 123 Oxford was a real estate agency for quite some years.
The price of houses then is astonishing, a few hundred quid got quite a decent sounding house, and much more bought a mansion.
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EW-Ron,
Well it gets a bit complicated and is taking some time to sort out - there appear to be two Chas. Court-Rice's, one maybe the father or at least related and a dog breeder / judge. But the one involved in "Star Engineering" is Charles Albert Court-Rice. There could be two or more F.R. Pulford's in the Sydney area around that time, but the "Star Engineering" one appears to be Frank Richard Pulford.
The 3 way partnership seems to have changed around 1922 and dissolved in 1924 but Court-rice possibly continued to operate "Star Engineering" after 1924 but at a different address in Bondi Junction....The Douglas person might be James W Atkins Douglas but not confirmed yet...... a bit more investigating and double checking to do ... oh and Court-Rice appears to have lived in Randwick for a time...but I don't think that is related to anything.....
Edit: James W Atkins Douglas is James Watkins Douglas - see next post
-Hutch
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From Dun's Gazette Vol 28 No 15 1922
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You’re doing a great job Hutch. The Star casting has now gone from a mysterious chunk of metal to having an exact location of manufacture, the full names of the people involved and even a fairly narrow date range. Also the fact they were agents for various motorcycles including Douglas pretty well eliminates the stationary engine and aircraft engine. Looks like it is an Australian made motorcycle engine. Well done,
The motor has clearly been used so now we just need to establish what frame it was in. Now there’s a challenge. It probably looks so much like a Douglas that even if photos exist they would be misidentified unless there is Star on the tank as Leon suggested.
Cheers Ian
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Leon suggested the Star on the tank :)
cheers
Hutch
Edit:- Ian corrected previous post
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James Watkins Douglas had a son, RAAF W/Op/Air/Gnr Ft/Sgt James Watkins Douglas, 424566 who was sadly died over France in 1944 aged 20.
http://aircrewremembered.com/cornish-howard.html
Nothing found so far on what the 3 proprietors of Star Engineering were doing during the war, but still looking. Frank R. Pulford would appear to have left the Railway Workshops just before the war started, so not sure he left to join up or not - maybe.
-H
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One interesting thing about the "Douglas" name (the family name, not the motorcycle) is that John Douglas was a farrier at 121 Oxford St in November 1917 (when he was left with an unclaimed horse!).
When Pulford, Court-Rice and James Douglas registered the Star Engineering Co in April 1919 they described the business as "engineers, blacksmiths", a nod to the earlier Douglas-family business in the same building.
The Star business stayed there until mid-1924, when the address changed to 123 Oxford St - either next door or a change in street numbering. It was still there in 1926.
I wonder if someone bought a load of "surplus" bits (crank shafts, cams etc.) from RAN Works, Randwick, cast a "motorcycle" crankcase with the Star name on it, and toyed with the idea of production of a motorcyle? I just can't imagine a small post-war business making Douglas crankshafts when real spares would be readily abailable.
Cheers
Leon
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The motor has clearly been used so now we just need to establish what frame it was in.
Times were tough post WW1, and people in business were pragmatic, which is why most Australian motorcycle manufacturers used imported engines, gearboxes and frame lugs. Given the unusual layout of the Douglas, I'd say 99% likely the engine was used in Douglas cycle parts.
Given the high numbers of Douglases around the place - the Australian military had quite a few, 25,000+ built for the British military and sold off after the war, civilian Douglases still coming in to Australia in 1916 in good numbers, and Douglas production continuing through and after the war (unlike most other manufacturers) - Pulford, Court-Rice and Jas. Douglas must have realised there was no commercial future in a "Douglas copy". I reckon one machine built for fun, other (ex-RAN?) parts sold as "spare parts for old models".
Leon
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Another link from The Referee 29th Aug 1917 on Trove, that I came across a day or so ago but didn't quite see how it fitted in at the time was that a Chas. Court-Rice (I am presuming this was Chas. snr) was a judge at the Pug and Poodle Club of N.S.W. Championships at 112 Oxford Street - not very far from Star Engineering.....
Yes I am in agreement with Leon about the potential connection between Star and the R.A.N. Randwick engines.. If you wanted to convert a R.A.N. stationary engine for motorcycle use then you could just buy the "Star" cast copy of the 2 3/4 Douglas flywheel side crankcase half, the "Uprated" brass timing covers and some other bits of the "Star" kit, like a flywheel etc and off you go - a "new" engine for the Duggie!. I had an inkling that there was a connection there somewhere!
(I looked at the "Star" casting of the flywheel side crankcase half and it appears pretty much identical to the one I have for a 1915 2 3/4 hp apart from the boss and hole for the primary chain guard - Edit - Apart from obviously that it does not have "Douglas" cast or stamped into into it - so I reckon was copied directly off a standard "veteran" style 2 3/4hp one - some of the later vintage ones appear to have sharper edges to the castings. It would be interesting to see if Star went to the trouble of casting in the internal oil "wells" for the drip lubrication above the crank as on the standard Douglas 2 3/4hp variety)
So this means that the timing side engine casting for the "Star" may be the same as that used on the R.A.N Works Randwick engine if the theory is correct? Is it different in some way to the split timing cover pre 1914 Douglas 2 3/4HP motorcycle engine timing side crankcase half so an identification can be made? (Hint Ian and Nev).
Edit: After looking at the pictures of the R.A.N. engine not sure that Star would have used the Timing side crankcase half as well - hard to see, so I am possibly wrong on this assumption? I guess if they could manufacture all the other parts, then doing this part as well would not have been an issue for them, but it would probably be the most complicated part of the operation?
Of course also Ian's Star engine may have a genuine Douglas timing side crank case?
So in a way it is possibly still an Australian made motorcycle engine if the basis was made in Randwick and then modified by the owner at home with Star parts or by Star Engineering at Bondi Junction even tho' they are technically copies of Douglas made parts?
We still don't know exactly where the R.A.N engine was made yet, but Pulford also lived in the Randwick for a time.
cheers
Hutch
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Hi Ian,
There might be a link between the Sydney "Star" engine and the R.A.N. stationary engine?? i.e. the Star engine preceded the R.A.N. one....not sure at all.....
Ha Ha - I should have said
....There might be a link between the Sydney "Star" engine and the R.A.N stationary engine?? i.e. the R.A.N engine preceded the Star one...not sure at all.....
But in reality at that stage of the thread it was all a very big guess on my part and pure speculation :-). I really had no clue.
Edit: some small edits to my previous post
cheers
Hutch
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I don’t have an early crankcase to compare the Star with but I have several of the later ones. Hutch has posed a few questions and pointed out a few details which I will try and address.
Yes the car casting does have rounded edges. All my later castings have much sharper edges. The later castings all have the chain guard hole or at least the knob present even if it is not drilled. Nothing on the Star.
The Star (on left) does have internal oil wells.
Photo 3 shows the hole into the oil well on the Star is much smaller than on the later Douglas
Photo 4 looking from the top shows magneto mounting bolt holes on the Star whereas they are on the flywheel timing gear side casting on my later engines. I noticed from the link to the generator motor they are on the flywheel side cover also. Where are they on the early motorcycle engines?
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I've had a brief look into the Randwick generator duggie engine and some of the background.
I don't think it has any connection with these Star engines, except as someone suggested
it may have involved putting a generator engine back into motorcycle use.
The Randwick engine involves the Australian Navy and a Catholic priest !
The Navy was intensely interested in the use of radio for ships, well prior to WW1.
And a Catholic Priest by the name of Archibald Shaw was greatly interested in radio prior to WW1,
experimenting and manufacturing radios in a factory in his backyard in Randwick.
Along with assembling a radio mast there, all of 240 ft tall.
I found this text, which summarizes the gist of it.
Note the mention of dynamo machinery, which I think refers to the Douglas engined (sorta) generator sets we are interested in.
The address is possibly No 4 Dutruc St in Randwick, quite a large house. There is mention of leasing further land from the Church,
without specifying quite where or what this was.
"During a great part of the war the export of wireless gear from Great Britain to Australia was necessarily suspended, and the Australia was forced to rely entirely upon local factories for the provision of these delicate instruments. The Williamstown workshops, established in 1912, proved inadequate, but the gap was very satisfactorily filled by Father Shaw’s wireless telegraphy workshops at Randwick near Sydney. The value of this service on the part of an institution which was already involved in great financial difficulties can hardly be exaggerated ; the number of ships and lives saved by its means will never be known.
The Naval Board in August, 1916, took over Father Shaw's workshops, utilising them not only for the manufacture and repair of wireless apparatus and machinery, but for making, for other Commonwealth departments, dynamo-electric machinery, electrical apparatus, etc.,of which supplies were then almost unobtainable.
https://historyandheritage.cityofparramatta.nsw.gov.au/blog/2014/08/04/world-war-one-the-home-front-radio-telegraphy-in-australia-1914-1818
And
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2218.0
There was also a large Navy Stores Depot just down the road in Avoca St Randwick, out behind Coogee,
Its still operational, although now called Randwick Barracks, and most of the Navy stores are demolished and slated for housing development.
Quite how this all ties together I know not, it would be interesting to know the details of who put the generator sets together.
I'm sure it would be in Navy Records - somewhere ?
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Great find Ew-Ron,
Here is a biography on Father Shaw - all very interesting and adds some spice to the story!. I guess he blatantly copied the Marconi and Telefunken equipment - but he must have had access to good machine shop equipment and skilled personnel to be able to manufacture these? - I wonder how he managed that before the war?
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/shaw-archibald-john-8404
Maybe the copy of the Marconi Generator set was made after the acquisition of Shaw's workshop by the Navy, hence the "R.A.N." on the engine? i.e. have there been any examples of Douglas / Marconi set copies without the R.A.N name on them seen by anyone?
-Hutch
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Now this has opened up a lot of new information.....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/126313959?searchTerm=Shaws%20wireless%20workshop%20randwick
The article on wireless wizardry has some very good pictures.....
EDIT:- and this article
http://messui.polygonal-moogle.com/valves/NW199003.pdf from Electronics Australia
-Hutch
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Nice finds. That radio factory is amazing, and that producer gas engine is a monster !
More details on the Randwick engines, including pics of the complete sets, and in use even
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/249805-marconi-500watt-pack-wireless-set/
"Photo of recently acquired generator unit built to the Marconi design at the RAN factory in Sydney in 1916"
(https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2017_05/5906f08549332_Right-rearquarter.thumb.JPG.7e801937829e4c2ee22d2d51d4fd58ad.JPG)
Mmmm, that lettering makes me wonder if there is some connection to the STAR SYDNEY crankcases, that is too much of a coincidence ??
https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2017_05/59265f264ba1e_Enginerear-lessflywheel.JPG.9ed4b94bac3753a9a3932f1add3f8455.JPG
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EW-Ron - you just beat me to it by seconds! :-)
I guess if this had been uncovered earlier in the thread we might have got there a bit quicker by a less convoluted route ! :-) Such is life! Great pictures of the generators sets and its use in action.
Did Pulford, Court-Rice and/or Douglas work for Father Shaw or the R.A.N. after they took over the works at Randwick?
cheers
Hutch
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Somewhere in Navy records is going to be the full story of this ?
All we have to do is unearth it ...
Its interesting that the Navy tried to keep the use of radio to themselves.
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The Navy records maybe buried pretty deep..... :-)
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Am I alone or do Ian Penrose pictures only partially download?
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I just tried downloading a few; they saved locally o.k.
-Doug
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well I can see all others but Ians looks like this
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In 1922 Court-Rice was living in Glen Avenue Randwick, probably about 200-300m as the crow flies from Shaw's workshops in the back of 4 Dutruc Street Randwick........
Why does the casting on Ian's "Star" engine say "Sydney" and not "Bondi Junction"? Was it from earlier than 1919 as part of (Edit: Shaw's ) R.A.N works copying operations?
I also just remembered this post by Daren;
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=8042.msg31090#msg31090
I wondered at the time of the post, where in Australia such duplicate parts could have been made if the ones offered were not genuine? Maybe Shaw's works could have provided such a service?
-Hutch
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Pics fully show for me.
The Navy records maybe buried pretty deep..... :-)
There is a book on the Royal Commission, no less
"Report of the Royal Commission on Navy and Defence Administration : in regard to (1) the purchase of the Shaw Wireless Works at Randwick 1918 "
Might see if I can borrow it, should be good for imsomnia !
Doubt it will go into motor-generators though.
A precis would seem to be that the newly created Minister for the Navy a Mr Jensen had incurred unapproved expenditure for the purchase of
AJ Shaws wireless operations in Randwick in 1916. And was sacked after the 1918 Royal Commission.
There was also the minor matter that Marconi's were pursuing a patent infringement against Mr Shaw at the time.
Never a dull moment in Oz politics...
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Hi TCK
I have that problem hen printing. Cuts the sides off.
I can send you images by email or SMS if you let me know which ones you want and your details.
Cheers
Ian P
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"Photo of recently acquired generator unit built to the Marconi design at the RAN factory in Sydney in 1916"
Mmmm, that lettering makes me wonder if there is some connection to the STAR SYDNEY crankcases, that is too much of a coincidence ??
You might be onto something there EW-Ron - good observation. You can make "STAR" out of the word "auSTRAlia" and "SYDNEY" out of a combination of the other letters. Hard to say if it is exactly the same font as on the wireless generator part of the R.A.N engine due to the aspect angle. On Ian's crankcase half the "SYDNEY" is a smaller font size to the "STAR" so it appears the "SYDNEY" part is from a different letter set (Edit: - or the other way around...)
Has anyone got end on picture of the wireless generator part (from the Kurrajong Radio Museum) to get a better comparison?
https://vk2bv.org/archive/museum/
cheers
Hutch
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tck
When you say "... Ian Penrose pictures only partially download...", do you mean
1. display as part of the whole web page?
2. or download just the image?
If it is #1, try a control F5 to refresh the screen. If still not a full display of all images on the page, repeat and note what happens.
If it is #2, what steps are you taking to download the image?
Dave
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Hi tck, Ian's pictures came out ok for me (and I have been having some big internet issues lately), hope you have sorted the issue out?
Found this interesting video on the web of the previously noted museum R.A.N. generator - very illuminating and I think puts a bit more of the pieces of the puzzle together? I wonder if the owner worked out the controls and got it running - I hope so.
I didn't go to that particular Toowoomba swap meet (...otherwise my wallet may have been a bit thinner afterwards...) but I did hear about the "Duggie generator engine" through the grapevine from a couple of people who missed out on it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oKggRB7aIo
Would be nice to get a better connection between the STAR proprietors and the R.A.N. Works at Randwick.
Ian, the date of the origins of the R.A.N. generator - the Marconi / Douglas 2 3/4hp portable spark gap generator, of 1913 would appear to fit with the general "veteran" look of your "STAR" flywheel side crankcase half. It does appear possible that it could have been made out of a modified R.A.N. pattern?
Cheers
Hutch
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tck
When you say "... Ian Penrose pictures only partially download...", do you mean
1. display as part of the whole web page?
2. or download just the image?
Dave
If it is #1, try a control F5 to refresh the screen. If still not a full display of all images on the page, repeat and note what happens.
If it is #2, what steps are you taking to download the image?
f5 did it! and it is #1 as shown on my picture around post #48 on first page
How strange! while I have often used f5 to free/refresh a web page I have never seen it complete a picture on a page already completed there must be something strange about those pictures all others in the thread and indeed to forum are OK I did look at them on an android pad they were complete
Thanks Dave
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A very interesting thread. I am not knowledgeable enough on the history to offer any more than already put . .. but very interesting to look at the attached photos and see that others were modifying or producing alternatives to the original Douglas engine.
I have a pair of earlyish spare crankcases, where one looks damaged at its base and has a period lead plate beaten into place. My initial thought would be if ever to use them - to get the hole welded up. . . . but being as they are total loss, it might be nice just to use them as is!
I notice the original two piece timing cover has an (alloy?) separate machined cover over the bigend feed. I have seen similar on the original 1912/13 TT engines, which I think may have had a second direct oil feed and handpump to the big end (particularly the 13/14 TT bikes?). The cover of my own project Douglas - although looking like a standard 1919 WD cover also has a hole in that Bigend area. I am intending to machine up a brass 3 screw cover . .. but would be interested to know why it may originally have been done, and if worth me making a nipple of some sort for additional oil feed?
best wishes
Paul
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tck,
... there must be something strange about those pictures...
Failure to load all images on a page can be caused by the browser timing out before all images are received. Page one of this topic has quite a few images and it may be that the half loaded ones are last in the queue to be sent.
Failing to load all images used to happen quite a bit with older DSL Internet connections and large topics displaying lots of photos. This topic was one that sometimes caused trouble - DT/SW5 Engines (https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7270.0). It would sometimes not complete loading due to the large number of images.
It can still happen on newer fibre connections for various reasons such as others downloading at the same time, or a temporary 'choke' happening somewhere between your PC and the ISP. It is unlikely to happen on faster (50mbps+) full fibre to the home connections.
Dave
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The Navy records maybe buried pretty deep..... :-)
There is a book on the Royal Commission, no less
"Report of the Royal Commission on Navy and Defence Administration : in regard to (1) the purchase of the Shaw Wireless Works at Randwick 1918 "
Might see if I can borrow it, should be good for imsomnia !
Yes you are correct EW-Ron - the report wasn't buried too deeply at all :-) I had assumed incorrectly that it would have been, given the scandal! Well the Royal inquiry part wasn't buried too deeply......I will have to see if the Navy files on personnel involved in the R.A.N. works at Randwick can be found.
I had a very quick scan through the digital version of the report that can be found online -
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-52781940/view?partId=nla.obj-90930937#page/n4/mode/1up
yes parts of it could be a cure for insomnia! But I did find this interesting item in part 19......the mention of motorcycles....I wonder if any were ever produced?
I will have a better read of it when I get some spare time...or I need to catch up on some sleep....
Cheers
Hutch
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Paul,
I think the hole in your timing cover may have been made by the screw that holds the pinion onto the end of the crank. If they come loose they appear to have the habit of turning into a crude (but potentially effective) end mill. I have a couple of timing covers with the evidence of such action - one is nearly all the way through and the diameter is more or less identical to that of the screw....
I was thinking that if the Star engine was indeed derived from the R.A.N. generator then the turned cap on the timing cover, might have been for covering over the extension of the crank (what ever that looks like?) for the starting handle? Not sure either - along with the lubrication details of the R.A.N. generator compared to the standard Duggie 2 3/4 h.p.
As usual maybe more questions than answers :-)
Cheers
Ian
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In the Sun 31 Jul 1918 it is reported that the Wireless Works at Randwick were short of work, most likely due to the end of the war being near? Lord Jellicoe is the person who recommended that the operation be wound up. This was reported in the press around Oct 9-10 1919. It was also reported in the press that he had never visited the establishment during his investigations.
So is the starting up of Star Engineering on 1/4/1919 (April Fool's day!) coincidental with the decline of the R.A.N. Workshop from mid 1918?
Edit: The general decision to stop work at the works and transfer the useful equipment and plant to Melbourne and Garden Island was reported in the press around 14th December 1918.
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This is developing into quite a story.
If we can find details of the naval folks who worked there, it will certainly flesh out the details.
It is reported someplace that the Mr Cresswell who came to manage the facility at Randwick when the navy
bought it was from the armaments factory in Lithgow.
I wonder how many of the reported 160 staff under Mr Shaw stayed on to work for the navy ??
Would they have been able to ?
I like your scenario of Star Engineering starting up after the end of hostilities, that certainly sits well with
of all sorts of industries and concerns being generated after WW1, as folks scrambled to find peacetime work.
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If of any help, about 20/25 yrs ago there was an article in the LDMCC mag with pics of a WW1 portable generator and its operating instructions as assembled at RAN Randwick. I remember the unit as was found at a Sydney rubbish dump in very complete condition and then went to Vic...alas I don’t have the mag.
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Thanks Alan,
I have a few old NCR mags but certainly not a complete collection - I will dig through them and see if I have the article. Someone else may be able to help?
Finding stuff on the tip is quite often the only way some of this information has survived! (....won't say what I used to do as kid a long time ago when security at tip sites in Oz was non-existent or at best quite slack!!) :-)
Only additional information found so far is that a Frank R. Pulford was in partnership with Richard Condon in the Standard Electrical Construction Company at 2 Washington St. Sydney from 6th May 1915 - might have been what he did after leaving the Railway workshops assuming it is the same person?
The Douglas blacksmith operation was quite a family affair with John Snr, John Jn, Richard Leslie, Stephen and James Watkin Douglas, plus a Norman Hunter all being at the 121 Oxford Street premise in 1905. Can we assume James was a blacksmith?
I still have failed to locate any WW1 service records for any of the 3 proprietors of Star Engineering at Bondi Junction.
I have found reference to a patent application by Court-Rice;
"Application for Letters Patent for an invention by: Charles Albert Court-Rice - Titled - Improvements in Clutch and accelerator interconnecting mechanism for motor vehicle engines 2742/1926"
So potentially Court-Rice was an engineer of some description? I cannot find anymore information so it could have lapsed or was not granted?
Going by the mission by Jellicoe the R.A.N. works had a team of skilled artisans there in 1918. As EW-Ron points out - were these people mainly from the earlier Shaw radio works or employed as required by the Navy - if so you could assume they would have had service records?
Cheers
Ian
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The Electoral Roll for Randwick (seat of Watson) may list some of the folks at Shaws Wireless Works.
Don't think its online, unless you've bribed Ancestry.com, might see if the library has it.
Might be a bit of a slog. Not sure it would cover Bondi Junction either, be a different seat.
You hear of all sorts of wonderful finds at the tip, I only ever got more junk, bits of junk or just junk !?
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Its also worth mentioning as before that Pulford has been in the compressor and now air and gas business since 1925,
and still going. As FR Pulford & Son in Maroubra circa 1949, and these days all over Australia.
Not much difference between engines and compressors, when it comes down to tin tacks ?
(https://pulford.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Pulford-Reliability-Experience.png)
https://pulford.com.au/about/air-compressors-sydney/air-compressor-sales-sydney/
Wonder how much they know of their founders history ?
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Hi EW-Ron,
Yes the timing of Frank R. Pulford leaving Star Engineering to Court-Rice does seem coincidental with the start up of F R Pulford of Air compressor fame. I had a little stab at the connection a way back in this thread but could not establish any links between compressors and the Star.
My sister is much better at genealogical research than I am (...and has an Ancestry account), so I asked her to look into Court-Rice and she may have uncovered an interesting link.
"...... Charles Court Rice senior born 1862 died 1936 in Australia, seems to have been a vet at one stage, and his father too I think, and one brother were horse dealers. He was married and 'living on his own means' in 1891, which could have been because his mother died (she was living on her own means in 1881).
He had a son Charles Albert Court Rice (no hyphen) in 1884. Can't find them in UK after 1891, but on one obituary he arrived in 1899. ..."
So the Court Rice's possibly live by independent means (?) and have a possible connection to horses. The Douglas's run the Blacksmith / Farriers business at 121 Oxford street, that also is connected to horses (and farrier business's very much in decline by the1900-10's) that is in need of a new direction (i.e. Star Engineering) and Father Shaw was apparently involved in horses as in Horse racing.....and Randwick is well known for its racecourse.......slim lead I know ,but could link Court-Rice (maybe Snr?), Douglas (maybe John rather than James) and Shaw. Not sure where Pulford fits in yet.
I think I might have stretched that as far as I can !...maybe to far? :-)
cheers
Hutch
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Part No 1243 Exhaust Valve Rocker. I have been cleaning up the parts hoping for another “Star “stamping. No Star stamp but this rocker stands out because of the lack of Douglas stamp. The photo shows the Douglas stamp in various positions and depth on the 3 on theleft “and nothing on the right rocker. This rocker also stands out because of the abnormal wear on the contact lobe. Not visible in the photo but quite pronounced. I have several original Douglas and none show anything like that amount of wear. The second photo shows a crack developing through both sides of the rocker and extends about half way. I wonder if the Star engineers didn’t get the metallurgy quite right and there was a catastrophic failure of the other exhaust rocker. The casing shows damage in the timing gear cavity and filler used to repair it. Also one of the valve rocker studs is stripped out of the casing but luckily was found amongst the bits. Lucky because it is longer than the standard Douglas stud. There are also two unmarked inlet valve rockers part number 1251 showing considerable wear. They are solid and do not have the cut out groove on one side that is found on the Douglas marked ones. No sign of the second exhaust rocker adding to the theory it broke and was discarded.
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I think the cracked cam follower is the result of something else going wrong - maybe a piston or rings breaking up and getting trapped above the valve and preventing it from lifting. The cam follower, being the weak link, cracks - as shown in the photo.
Regards,
Eddie.
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Ian,
Your post had me going into the shed to check the 2 3/4hp cam followers I have. I have a few and most are knackered, but all the ones with the groove have the Douglas DK trademark on them. The ones without the groove have no trademark on them. Two of them have been welded up to repair a crack in the same area as yours so possibly a common issue? One is Douglas the other is a no-brand. Fatigue, or as Eddie says some other issue? Some of the followers I have appear to be bent - all damaged ones are exhaust followers...... maybe too much lift on that wild "Star Engineering" Camshaft! :-)
EDIT:- ratio of Douglas to No Brand followers is about 50:50.
I have a pair of exhaust followers that appear NOS - no groove or trademark....I was going to use them in an engine and now you have me worried :-).....might check the quality of the material on those!...
Cheers
Hutch
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Ian,
I think you will find that the geometry of the followers is the cause of more breakages on exhaust followers. The inlet followers have the tappet almost in line with the contact point with the cam - the exhaust followers are longer, so the tappet exerts a bending force on the follower - probably the reason why later followers were of a deeper section.
Eddie.
P.S. The increased wear rate on the 'pattern' followers may not be down to poor quality material - more a case of the materials for the cams and followers being too similar - in high load situations, it is better to have dis-similar metals in rubbing contact - BSA found this out in the early 50's with the cams and followers on their singles.
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Ian, is there any indication whether the cylinders (and pistons) you acquired via ebay are Douglas items,
or copies ? Occurs to me if the crankcases and crank are Star Engineering, maybe the whole lot was
being replicated ? Possibly as a follow on from what the RAN Works were doing. ??
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I can see no markings on the cylinders but then I can not see any Douglas identity marks on any of my other cylinders. Is there usually Douglas mark any where on the cylinders. If so where?
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Seems the unmarked cam followers are quite common so possibly not Star. How about the piston on the right? Unlike any others I have. No markings but no markings on the others either.
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I don't think I know these engines that well either.
I just wondered if something would stand out.
There is nothing (markings) cast up inside the pistons ?
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Douglas on the left with Single rib. Unknown on the right with X rib. Does this match anything in anyone’s collection? A common aftermarket piston or could it be a Star Engineering piston?
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Ian,
The "single rib" design looks like one of the Douglas piston designs to me, but would have to look at some old pistons to confirm. They have two wide rings above the gudgeon pin. Douglas did change the design as time went on so not 100% sure about the one on the right - it does look non-Douglas to me tho'.
It does appear to have a thicker skirt than the one on the left tho' and the 2 3/4 pistons I have seen with the single rib appear to have quite thin skirts - maybe the one on the right is one casting designed to suit all overbores? (i.e. like the Aluminium JP pistons for the 2 3/4 hp)
I would have to look at the 2 3/4hp parts book but I seem to remember Douglas only offering a smallish range of oversize pistons? I have some 2 3/4 h.p. barrels that have been bored out to over 1mm oversize so my guess is they would have had to use aftermarket pistons? Guess only.
I have some more info. on Cam followers but unfortunately busy with other tasks at the moment - will post when I get a chance. It is in relation to Eddie's post.
Cheers
Hutch
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Hi Ian,
Harold D. kindly sent me this picture of a 1913 2 3/4hp flywheel side crankcase half and I added in a picture of a 1915 version for comparison with the "Star" version. No real disenable difference between the 1915 version and 1913 one, that I can see (apart from the patina that is!). So cannot date the "Star" casting other than to say it is "Veteran" style Douglas ? The split timing cover of the "Star" appears to date the timing side crankcase half casting pattern from 1914 or earlier.
Cheers
Hutch
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Is it my imagination or does the casting around the drive side main bearing on the Star engine looks more like the R.A.N. engine than the 1913 -1915 Douglas version? i.e. sharper edges and slightly larger - might be just the picture aspect tho'?
-H
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Hi Hutch,
Does the R.A.N have a one or two piece timing gear cover?
The lack of the raised “button” on the Star certainly ties it in with the RAN style cover. That raised bit on the 1913 and 1915 covers is even found on the later 1920’s casings that no longer use it for the chain guard screw. My 1925 TS secures the chain guard using the gearbox bolts and the button is not even tapped with a thread or even a hole.
It would be interesting to compare the internals of an RAN motor with a Douglas. I have a piston and a connecting rod that don’t match my Douglas samples.
Cheers Ian P
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Found letters cast into the inside of the unknown piston. Doesn’t look like Star. Do the letters mean anything to anybody?
(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/ianpenrose/2020/Unknown-piston-letters-1-900.jpeg)
(https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/aa-files/images/ianpenrose/2020/Unknown-piston-letters-2-cr-900.jpg)
Image aspect ratios corrected and cropped - Dave, Admin, 12 Oct 2020
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Douglas on the left, Star? On the right.
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Nothing to add on the latest photos . . . other than they are all interesting - but Hutch, I love that video of the stationary engine, it is wonderfully original. If I owned that and 'had my way' at home (which I don't!) . . . I would have the stationary engine running in one room . . .and powering the TV in the other room - so that my wife and daughter could watch whatever soap they want to watch, and I could just stay in the other room and watch the stationary engine running!
Paul
www.RacingNorton.co.uk
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Ah, there might be a bit of a technical problem with powering your TV with that thing.
Quite apart from the exhaust fumes in your 'other room' !
Something I only realised from that video is that that these 'generator' thingies only generate
a massive spark to be able to generate radio signals from a spark gap.
Early radio transmissions were decidedly primitive, and broadcast across a huge chunk of the
radio spectrum - in morse code dots and dashes only.
Such spark transmissions were actually outlawed in 1934, since such signals cause massive interference
across voice transmission signals, which was a 1920s development which made spark transmissions obsolete.
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Hi Hutch,
Does the R.A.N have a one or two piece timing gear cover?
The lack of the raised “button” on the Star certainly ties it in with the RAN style cover. That raised bit on the 1913 and 1915 covers is even found on the later 1920’s casings that no longer use it for the chain guard screw.
Hi Ian,
Yes the R.A.N. generator has (well this one does...) a two piece timing cover as shown in this picture of an incomplete one shown on this forum;
https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=2218.0
Two piece timing covers were used by Douglas up to 1914 on the 2 3/4 hp. In 1915 Douglas introduced the single piece timing cover. This doesn't necessarily date the "Star" flywheel side crankcase half to pre 1914 design tho', only the timing side half. Note the bulge in the R.A.N timing cover where the end of the crank shaft would be. I presume this would possibly in relation to the starting handle but without seeing inside it is pure speculation on my part. Might be for an extra support bearing....not sure.
The R.A.N. engine may have a different oiling system to the standard motorcycle engine, something I still have to investigate. looks like an oil filler on the top "half" of the timing cover, or maybe a breather? I will have to hunt down the instruction book on the R.A.N. generator that Alan hinted about earlier in this thread.
I had a quick look at my conrod collection and have one or two similar in design to the big end of your "Star" one, but with a much larger and squarer section around the little end. If you put them in a lathe and machined the little end down they would look just like your "Star" rod.
I had always assumed these conrods were "early" veteran 2 3/4hp ones as they are heavier in design than the normal conrod you would find in a vintage 2 3/4hp. The pictures from the 1912 -1915 Douglas literature don't appear at first glance to tell us much - except the 1912 ones are different again. So are these heavier ones I have Douglas or not?. Don't know, but one has the marking "T89" stamped into it, I gather that this would have matched the numbers stamped in the crankcase halves of the original engine? If this is Douglas, I don't know over what period they did this. I did find a "vintage" or later "veteran" style rod with the number N124 stamped into it, so possibly Douglas did stamp the matching crankcase numbers on the rods up to a certain time, say WW1? Don't know, but maybe someone on the forum does?
I will get some pictures of the rods I have when I get a chance and will clean up the rods I have and have a closer look also.
cheers
Hutch
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Ian,
Here are a couple of pictures showing the little and big ends of the two conrods I mentioned earlier. Your "Star" one might have originated from the heavier one?
-Hutch
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Pictures of Marconi 500W portable generator sets seem to be a bit thin on the web, but I found this one on Grace's Guide;
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1917YBWT-Marconi8.jpg
Now the interesting thing is the barrels and inlet manifold are 1912 not 1913.....I wonder if Marconi updated their generator engine as Douglas developed the 2 3/4HP or the Marconi ones stayed at 1912 design? The R.A.N. of 1916 appears to be based on the Douglas engine 1913-1914?
More things to ponder! :-)
Edit: So the funny looking casting on the upper timing cover half is for a tacho drive? (not oil filling as I guessed earlier in the thread) Will have a look through some old NCR's and see if I can find the article that Alan referred to.....
-Hutch
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I notice there are a couple of sets of teens/20s duggie piston blanks on aussie ebay.
Lot of turning to do !
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8vQAAOSwU~9fWHEO/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LnUAAOSw3NBfWHEV/s-l1600.jpg
Same seller has some ohv blanks also.
So this stuff is/was around.
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......Mmmm, that lettering makes me wonder if there is some connection to the STAR SYDNEY crankcases, that is too much of a coincidence ??
I was also thinking along those lines as well, EW-Ron (reply #53). I asked Harold D., who was at the Toowoomba Swap mentioned earlier in this thread, if he took any pictures of the RAN spark generator. With a big thankyou to Harold, we have the attached picture.........which shows the letters are a different font to those used on the "Star" Engine (i.e. look at the "S").
So I think it is back to the drawing board on that one unfortunately! :( .
cheers
Hutch
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After seeing these in detail, I don't think there is any connection there either.
And any good foundry can do lettering too, it must be commented.
I enquired of the War Memorial in Canberra, The Royal Australian Navy History Unit, and The Powerhouse Museum if they had any knowledge of the Randwcck operation.
They confessed to knowing of it, with no real additional detail. Nor knowledge of where any actual blueprints of such things might be either.
Or details of who may have worked there, other than what can be read in the press reports of the day.
The Canberra War Memorial did advise though that one of their volunteers had visited the Randwick workshops, in the early 1980s, when by then it was just a storage facility.
I asked if they could record their memories of that, but I'd doubt that much will come of it -AAnd it was largely empty by then.
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I have not looked at this since 2020. I had a quick look back through what I had found and about the only thing I had not posted was what F R Pulford was doing in late 1916 and a fair bit of 1917. I had drawn a blank on any war service records but found that he travelled to the UK to work for Vickers as a munitions worker. This was as a volunteer and Vickers paid for the transport and an equivalent wage for their efforts. I gather initially the pay was quite low, working conditions harsh and hours long. Vickers were advertising for volunteers in Australia during 1916.
Pulford travelled to London on the Medina arriving on 20/12/1916, presumably with approx. 100 fellow volunteers. He returned on the Kemmera (sp?) and disembarked in Hobart on 27 August 1917. Some of his fellow passengers on this voyage were also listed in the manifest for the Medina so I gather their return passage was arranged by Vickers. His profession is listed as Engineer and aged 26.
A quick check of what some of the other volunteers were doing around this time has not revealed any further clues so far. I don't have a full list of the volunteers who went with Pulford so might have to dig those up and go through all of them!
So F R Pulford had something to do with Munitions during the war. What he was doing immediately before and after his stint in the UK I do not know. Not sure how or when he got from Hobart to Sydney and what he did on his return until the start of Star Engineering. It is possible he was at the wireless workshop at Randwick but I still have no information to confirm that.
Information on the Munition Volunteers can be found here;
https://www.surreyinthegreatwar.org.uk/story/australian-munitions-workers/
I presume Pulford didn't get the benefits of the WMV or AMW schemes as he returned to Australia to early?.
I think there are records in the National Archives for workers under the AMW scheme but it appears that Pulford's service predates these records (also Vicker's was a private entity - so presumably the only records of the volunteers would be held by them?)
-cheers Hutch
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More info on the conditions of the munitions volunteers here;
https://www.diversenarratives.co.uk/australian-munitions-workers/