Author Topic: Felt washers for 2 3/4hp wheels? (Read 2326 times)

Tim OConnor · « **on:** 02 Sep 2022 at 02:01 »

I just got a look at a parts catalog for the first time.

It shows (at least) 3 felt washers:

1399 Felt washer for above (dust cap is above)
1400 Felt washer for screwed cap
1401 Felt ring for hub cap

I have none of these on my wheel.

Can someone please post photos of the application and if possible dimensions or sources?

Thank you!

EW-Ron · « **Reply #1 on:** 02 Sep 2022 at 05:06 »

Don't get too excited by these !
They are just a piece of stiff cloth, functioning as rudimentary 'seals' against grease exiting and dust entering.
I just had a quick look, and nothing accessible has anything to photo ..

If you take an old expired felt hat, and cut a few disks, with central holes for the axle, then thats about it !
If no old hats are to hand, a piece of not-so-thick cardboard would do almost the same job.
Felt is more suitable because it can be jammed into the required circular space, and not damage anything if it rubs.
A dollop of grease gives it some waterproofing properties even.

Hopefully someone will have pics and a possible (commercial) source.
They are readily DIY though.

Tim OConnor · « **Reply #2 on:** 02 Sep 2022 at 11:17 »

Thank you!

I still can't quite get my head around the fitment.

EW-Ron · « **Reply #3 on:** 02 Sep 2022 at 22:25 »

The EW wheels have a slight 'well' outboard of the roller bearings.
The felt circular washers poke into this 'well'

Keeps the grease inside, and the dust outside.
Water also, hopefully.
Having a hole in the felt's middle allows the axle to clamp everything up tight,
and not interfere with this action.
Make up disks of cardboard, and see if you can find places for it ?

Someone here must have these wheels accessible for a pic or 2 ?
Stay tuned ?

Hutch · « **Reply #4 on:** 03 Sep 2022 at 03:44 »

Tim and EW-Ron,

The seal setup for the 2 3/4hp hub is quite different to those of the CW and later EW models. The seals are made out of felt - not sure the variety of felt, wool or rabbit ? They look like they are, as EW-Ron suggests, stamped out of sheet material. I'm fairly sure I have some originals somewhere but do not have them in front of me right at this moment. They are sometimes missing, in particular the thin one under the screw on cap, but as they do prevent some water / dirt ingress into the bearings, I think they should be fitted.

I note that in the description of the seals the word "CAP" is used for 1400D and "CUP" is used for 1401D - I think this helps identify where they go. In the 1925 parts book I also notice that the picture of the smaller felt washer to go in the cup, is identified as "1400D" but in the description it is listed as 1401D Felt Ring for Hub cup?? This makes things a little bit confusing!! :-). In my picture from the 1925 Handbook of the Douglas Motorcycle, I use the description part numbers rather than the one in the picture (iEdit - in the parts book) i.e. 1400D is the thin felt washer under the screw on cup and 1401D is the felt ring that goes in the hub.

From the 1919 2 3/4 HP Spare Parts Errata booklet, we have on page 4 that part 1399D is obsolete and I think it may have been replaced by part 1400D but will need to look into it a bit deeper (as it may be 1401D ! :-) ).

I think that hat felt may be too thick for 1400D but probably ok for 1401D?

Hope this helps,

Cheers

Hutch

Tim OConnor · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 Sep 2022 at 12:28 »

Interesting! Yes this helps my understanding a great deal especially the illustration.

EW-Ron · « **Reply #6 on:** 04 Sep 2022 at 06:13 »

Got access to an accessible EW350/600 wheel.
Can't imagine they are too much different ?

The felts, as you can imagine, are not longer pristine and clean.
Rather, they are greasy grey looking things that could easily be mistaken for thinking they are metal.
Until you poke or disturb them - which I didn't do.

The filenames say it all ?
Hopethishelps.

Tim OConnor · « **Reply #7 on:** 04 Sep 2022 at 12:39 »

This is great!

Thank you!

Marcus · « **Reply #8 on:** 04 Sep 2022 at 23:18 »

Hi Everyone,
I have one hub for my 1925 TS (photos below). I cant see where the felt seals would go or am I missing some sort of piece which goes on each side to hold them, or is this the wrong hub altogether ? I need another one but want to make sure I'm looking for the correct item.

Thanks

Marcus

EW-Ron · « **Reply #9 on:** 05 Sep 2022 at 04:43 »

Neither end of that hub looks like its been exposed to the elements ?

The top photo - hub - looks like there would be a felt poked into that hole around the axle.
Perhaps fitted before the threaded plate goes on there ?

The lower pic - other side - would have had a tin dust cover ?
Perhaps like the EW350 one ?
This one is paint, it probably would have been nickelled ?
Sorry the focus isn't great.
Its quite thin sheet steel - and that hex slips over the nut on the axle.

Rob · « **Reply #10 on:** 05 Sep 2022 at 06:48 »

Marcus,

I think you may be missing parts 1402D and 1403D, (inner screw caps, left hand and right hand thread).

I have attached a couple of photos of the components.

Rob

EW-Ron · « **Reply #11 on:** 05 Sep 2022 at 07:25 »

I think we are starting to cook with gas here - as the saying goes
(and may not be applicable everywhere these days ...)

On the large felt from the left hand thread details, you can see the imprint from the 6 holes.

(and also on the rhs one, to a lesser extent.)
(which only has 4 holes for the tool - but the felt imprint has 6 ??)

Be interesting to see them laid out in the order of assembly. ?
I'm unclear where that larger thin steel ring goes

Hutch · « **Reply #12 on:** 05 Sep 2022 at 07:27 »

Quote from: Marcus on 04 Sep 2022 at 23:18

I have one hub for my 1925 TS (photos below). I cant see where the felt seals would go or am I missing some sort of piece which goes on each side to hold them, or is this the wrong hub altogether ? I need another one but want to make sure I'm looking for the correct item.

Thanks

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Your hub looks like early 2 3/4 hp hubs that I think were used circa 1913-14. I'm not sure of the exact dates they were used, but I think possibly after Douglas finished using Chater Lea type hubs (1379D), but before the introduction of the screw on dust caps and "tin" covers (1397D and 1398D). I will have a look in the parts book and see if I can find out when the screw on dust covers were introduced - maybe 1914 but not 100% sure. I used to have a couple of these type hubs but swapped them for something or other. quite a few years ago. I may still have a very rough one in the shed and will see if I can find it. If I remember correctly, there is a felt seal in a groove in the screw in bearing cups on both sides. If you unscrew them and pull out the axle you may either see the seal in the groove or an empty groove where the seal goes, on the inside of the hole where the axle goes. The cups do not protrude enough out of the hub enough on one side (the fixed cup side) for a dust cap to screw on. On the adjustable side there is almost zero thread to be able to screw the dust cap on also. I'm not sure if these cups are the same width as the later ones - If I can find the one I have I will measure it and compare with one that takes the screw on dust cap.

The hubs without the screw on dust covers are veteran period rather than vintage.

One of the hubs I had the "Douglas" name (faintly) embossed on it and at least one of the others had nothing, but all 3 are the same design and look the same as yours. I have heard from others of early Douglas hubs with no manufacturer's name on them as well. The later screw on dust cap type seem to have the word "Douglas" quite deeply pressed / engraved into them on the ones I have seen.

Cheers

Hutch

Marcus · « **Reply #13 on:** 05 Sep 2022 at 10:03 »

Thanks Rob, EW-Ron and Hutch,

I don't have the hub with me at the moment as it's in my workshop on the other side of town but I will get it over the next couple of days and strip it back down and lay out all the bits in the order it is assembled, and see if that helps. It does have 5/16" steel balls, while I thought the early hubs had 1/4" balls.

Thanks again for your help
Cheers

Marcus

Hutch · « **Reply #14 on:** 07 Sep 2022 at 01:54 »

Hi All,

Wow, a lot of questions!

Quote from: EW-Ron on 05 Sep 2022 at 07:25

On the large felt from the left hand thread details, you can see the imprint from the 6 holes.
(and also on the rhs one, to a lesser extent.)
(which only has 4 holes for the tool - but the felt imprint has 6 ??)
……….

I'm unclear where that larger thin steel ring goes

EW Ron,

I think the felt washers have probably been mixed and matched as have the cups. Some cups have 4 holes and some have 6 but other than that appear identical.

The large thin steel ring is the adjustable cup locking ring (1369D). It has a left hand thread.

Quote from: EW-Ron on 05 Sep 2022 at 04:43

Neither end of that hub looks like its been exposed to the elements ?

……
The lower pic - other side - would have had a tin dust cover ?
Perhaps like the EW350 one ?
This one is paint, it probably would have been nickelled
Sorry the focus isn't great.
Its quite thin sheet steel - and that hex slips over the nut on the axle.

One of the “non-screw on dust cap" hubs I used to have was in very good condition with nice original Nickel plating more or less intact even without the dust caps – another one was in very poor condition, some survive well and some don’t. The dust caps would obvious help preserve the condition of the end and threads of the cups tho’.

On all the belt drive “tin” dust covers (1397D and 1398D) I have, all appear to have been painted not plated, but it is quite possible that some were plated.

EDIT:- I just found one that is Nickel plated!!

For the war effort motorcycles, all the shiny nickel plating was painted over with dull, usually black paint for obvious reasons. The 2 ¾ hp belt drive tin dust caps don’t have the “hex” in them, for the hex on the adjustable bearing cone, like the later ones for the CW and EW etc.

Quote from: Marcus on 05 Sep 2022 at 10:03

....

I don't have the hub with me at the moment as it's in my workshop on the other side of town but I will get it over the next couple of days and strip it back down and lay out all the bits in the order it is assembled, and see if that helps. It does have 5/16" steel balls, while I thought the early hubs had 1/4" balls.

Thanks again for your help
Cheers

Marcus

Marcus,

I have dug a little deeper and my assumption of the inner screw on caps (1402D and 1403D) being introduced in 1914 was wrong. Tin dust caps (1397D and 1398D) appear to have been introduced in 1915-16 and screw on caps sometime after this, but before 1919 (i.e. Douglas kept improving the design for the war effort). I will put together a separate post on what I have found when I get a chance.

Douglas appear to have introduced 11 gauge spokes in 1915, an upgrade from the earlier 12 gauge ones. It is possible that earlier “colonial” wheels also had larger diameter spokes but information is scarce and I will need to investigate further. On the “non-screw on dust caps” hubs that I used to have, the spoke holes in the hub were for 12 gauge spoke not 11 gauge – possibly indicating they were pre 1915. Of course in the life of the hub the holes could easily have been drilled out to accept 11 gauge spokes so this dating method is not fool-proof unfortunately…….also I have had a “screw on dust cap” hub that had 12 gauge spoke holes! So unfortunately and as usual, nothing is simple with Douglas parts (!) but generally 12 gauge spoke holes appear to indicate an earlier hub I would think (?)

Now I’m able to get in the shed I have not been able to locate the “non screw on dust cap" hub that I thought I had (early onset Alzheimer’s!) I probably sold or swapped it…….it was a while ago! I can get details of them if required tho'. I think I took some picture of some of the ones I had and will see if I can find them.

Edit:- I found a hub with 12 gauge spoke holes that appears to be a "non-screwed dust cap" hub that looks like it has been machined at some time to accept the screwed on dust caps......

I will look into the ¼” vs 5/16” ball bearing question when I get a chance. (9 by 5/16” vs 11 by ¼” ????) I seem to remember this question has popped up before on the forum?

Cheers

Hutch

Marcus · « **Reply #15 on:** 07 Sep 2022 at 03:33 »

Thanks Hutch,
The hub was removed from a complete wheel but the rim was very badly rusted and so not worth keeping, however it did have 11 gauge spokes. I will be picking up the hub tomorrow when I'm at work and so will post photos of it disassembled. I cant remember the number of 5/16" balls but will be able to let you know tomorrow.

Marcus

Hutch · « **Reply #16 on:** 07 Sep 2022 at 03:55 »

Hi Marcus,

I think I now have enough information to possibly identify the rough year of manufacture of the hub - normal caveats with Douglas parts identification apply tho'!

I also think I have found another Douglas "typo" where the picture of the part in the parts book doesn't match the description but will mention that in a later post.

In trying to work out when Douglas modified the hubs I had a look at the 4 HP parts list (1922 version). The 2 3/4hp and 4 hp underwent similar developmental stages in some areas at roughly the same time. From this I found out that Douglas appear to have added the inner screw on dust caps to the 4HP hubs in 1917. They added the outer dust caps in 1915 as per the 2 3/4hp.

As it appears the 2 3/4hp changed to 11 gauge spokes in 1915 then my guess is your hub is roughly between 1915 and 1917 (...but not 100% certain at all as it may be a "colonial" version from earlier). Doesn't really matter as with the outer "tin" dust caps fitted as you cannot really see what is behind them anyway!

As I mentioned before I will put together a timeline of the info. from the parts lists and other sources as to what I think happened with the hub development. Its been a bit of fun and have enjoyed learning a few new things :-)

cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #17 on:** 07 Sep 2022 at 22:46 »

Marcus,

I found a previous post on 1/4" vs 5/16" balls for the hubs. I rechecked the parts and instruction books and didn't come up with any further explanations - i.e. the parts books from 1922 onwards say 1/4" for part 1405D but the instruction book say 5/16". In the picture from the 1916 manual previously shown in this thread, it has 5/16" marked on the picture. I have not seen 1/4" balls in the hubs I have - in fact I don't appear to have enough 1/4" balls in the shed to even be able to do an experiment with them!.

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=8819.msg34644#msg34644

So I don't know if the 1/4" reference is a typo that was perpetuated over a number of years and / or the hub will actually work ok with them (but with more balls in the race of course). It is possible the very early Chater Lea hubs had 1/4" balls but I have no information on this.

Maybe other forum members have experience with 1/4" balls in their hubs or other information they can share?

Cheers

Hutch

Marcus · « **Reply #18 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 04:09 »

Hutch,

Here is the hub dismantled, it has 9 x 5/16" balls on each side and its isn't possible to get a 10th one in. The radius on the axle fits 5/16" but it doesn't look correct if I was to use 1/4" balls.

Any further update on what type of holder for the felt washers should be there, and if this hub is not correct for a 1925 TS model can someone please put a photo of the correct type if they have one, so I know what to look for.

Thanks

Marcus

cardan · « **Reply #19 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 05:07 »

Hi Marcus,

My best guess is that the adjustable cup on your hub didn't start life on that hub.

I assume that if felt washers were fitted to seal the hub they were on both sides. However the "fixed" bearing cup on your hub screws in with no external threads showing. (By the way, it looks like you haven't taken this out of the hub - good idea! They are often extremely tight and only need to come out if worn.) On felt seal hubs, that cup is a little longer and screws in with a few threads exposed. The cap that holds the felt seal screws onto these threads. Since your hub doesn't have a seal on the fixed cup side, I assume it didn't have a seal on the other side either.

Your cup with the recess for the seal probably comes from a later hub.

Cheers

Leon

cardan · « **Reply #20 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 05:14 »

This is the seal retainer, from Hutch's photo. On the under side, there is a recess with a short internal thread that screws onto the exposed part of the external thread on the bearing cup.

Leon

cardan · « **Reply #21 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 05:21 »

Sorry, just realised the hub drawing is in a different thread. It shows the layout of the seal retainers. All the parts (except the outer covers) are in Hutch's photos. The outer covers are a "belt and braces" thing - presumably to keep the worst of the muck off the felt seals. Unlike the later ones (photo higher up) they don't screw on.

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #22 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 05:34 »

Thanks for the picture Marcus,

(Leon posted while I was writing this - sorry if any duplication of information or we are "out of sync")

I think we have fairly well eliminated the 1/4" ball as a possibility for use in these hubs- I guess it must have been a perpetuated typo in the parts book? 5/16" are the ones to use.

Your hub doesn't have the facility for a screw on dust caps and its associated felt washer on either side, but would have had the two "tin" dust covers and the "superseded" felt washer 1399D to go with them. I don't have an original of this washer to copy but it would be probably fairly easy to do an experiment to work out what dimensions would work.

if it was me, I would still use this hub on a 1924 TS, with the tin caps (1397D and 1398D) in place as it will look externally, pretty much the same as the "correct" one with the screw on dust caps and the "tin" dust caps in place. (Good) Hubs in general are moderately scarce so it can be a case of "use what you have" sometimes , until the correct-for-1924 one turns up of course!.

I agree with what Leon says about one of your cups is from a later hub - that makes securing the felt ring / lip seal a bit harder. If you cannot find a matching early cup then it may be possibly to machine the hub to give enough threads exposed on the cup to allow a screwed on dust cap to be fitted? . With all the options I guess this can be a little confusing. I will see if I can do a sketch / picture to help clarify things for you.

(yes I have had "fun" getting the cups out !! They can be in f'n tight. I worked out a way to do it but sometimes I think that something expensive is going to break when I do it!! Heat helps a lot but if the hub has nice Nickel plating then one must be very careful......)

Cheers

Hutch

Marcus · « **Reply #23 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 05:55 »

Hi Leon and Hutch,

Leon the hub cross section you posted looks exactly the same as my hub except mine doesn't have the extended threads to fit the internal dust caps with the felt washers.

I am now pretty certain that Hutch was correct yesterday when he said mine is from 1915 onwards based on the 11 gauge spokes and that it would have had the tin external dust caps fitted and sometime between 1915 and 1924 Douglas made the bearing cups a little longer to have the threads to fit the internal dust caps as well as the external dust caps that were already there.

I will make some tin dust caps to fit mine and use it in the meantime and if a later hub turns up I can just swap it over. I just need to find a second hub as I only have one.

Thanks everyone, hopefully we have added a little extra to the knowledge base.

Cheers

Marcus

Tim OConnor · « **Reply #24 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 11:32 »

Here is what is on my W-20

Tim OConnor · « **Reply #25 on:** 08 Sep 2022 at 11:41 »

two more

Marcus · « **Reply #26 on:** 10 Sep 2022 at 08:20 »

Hi Tim,
Thank you very much for posting those photos. I am convinced that I have an earlier model hub but at least know what to look for as I need another one to make a pair. As I said earlier in an earlier post, if I can find 2 later ones than I can swap out the early one I now have but at least it will be fine in the meantime.

Cheers
Marcus