Author Topic: Douglas abandons pedals? (Read 2565 times)

George Kulisiewicz · « **on:** 31 Dec 2023 at 03:36 »

Recently reading in the large encyclopedia of motorcycles I stumbled on to a small write up regarding the early Douglas motorcycles… in the write up it mentioned that Douglas stubbornly held on to pedals on their bikes until 1914 … I find this interesting as my Douglas from what I have gathered is a 1913 Model R with foot clutch and kick starter… Interestingly the bike has foot pedals like a bicycle… admittedly the pedals do not match although they are both very old pedals and of course there could have been a number of reasons why the pedals are mismatched in the last 110 years … The real question for me is wether or not the motorcycle ever had running boards or originally left the factor with bike type pedals … according to the book I just read it’s very possible being a 1913 that it always had pedals ..however when searching on the internet for pictures of other bikes from 1913 and specifically the model R they always seem to have running boards… maybe during the restoration of a lot of these bikes they were added? Or perhaps being so close to the supposed change over of 1914 according to the book that some 1913’s were leaving the factory with running boards? I would be interested to hear anyone’s thoughts on this and or possibly they have more data to back up this claim? I have attached a few pictures of my bike and it’s pedals … Thanks George

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Dec 2023 at 03:38 »

I can’t get my pictures to post at the moment… I will try again shortly..

Photos converted to linked images. shadow detail lightened. Aspect ratio fixed - Dave, 03Jan2023

Dave · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Dec 2023 at 07:28 »

George, try attaching the photos one at a time - ie one photo per post - in this topic. Then we can combine them all into a single post when you are finished.

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Dec 2023 at 14:21 »

Ok I will try pic’s individually… thank you

Black Sheep · « **Reply #4 on:** 01 Jan 2024 at 16:07 »

That pedal, though probably contemporary, looks like a bodge to me. My 1913 Model O has footboards.

Jonathan Hewitt · « **Reply #5 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 05:52 »

Happy new year all. Is there a clutch ? Has the footboard been taken off to accommodate the fabricated foot operated gear change ?
Jonathan

eddie · « **Reply #6 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 07:09 »

It looks more like a foot operated clutch with a toe and heel pedal connected by a rod to the normal wedge that lifts the clutch. The normal gearchange rod can be seen inboard of the primary chain.

Eddie.

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #7 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 09:32 »

I will try to take some better pictures this evening when I return home from work… The clutch pedal looks to me to be original… And can be operated fairly easily with the type of foot pedals that are currently on the bike… There are a couple of pictures floating around on the Internet of the model R But many of them for some reason are missing the clutch and kickstart?… I’ve noticed also a picture or two where the clutch pedal is coming up through a hole in the floorboard… Does any one have a model R that they could share some pictures of their clutch pedal and the arrangement of the linkage, etc. thank you in advance.

cardan · « **Reply #8 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 10:35 »

Quote from: George Kulisiewicz on 02 Jan 2024 at 09:32

The clutch pedal looks to me to be original…

No, I don't think so. More like this.

Leon

cardan · « **Reply #9 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 10:43 »

1913 guff. The Model R has a particularly interesting front mudguard.

Leon

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #10 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 10:52 »

Wow… thank you for the pictures… there is a lot of information explained here… and some new information obtained in other areas… the one add shows a picture of a Douglas carb on a 1913 engine… I was under the impression that carb was only on 1912 models? Leon … are the pedals you pictured spares?

eddie · « **Reply #11 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 10:53 »

George,
Whilst they both used the same components to operate the clutch, there were 2 different clutches fitted to 2¾hp models. The early type fitted to 1912/13 machines was small enough to fit inside the final drive pulley, but only just coped with the power. Later models had a larger, more reliable clutch - still integral with the pulley, but mounted outboard of it (see attached image of a 1916 machine). You will also see that the veteran machines (pre 1914) had flat wooden footboards with brass angle trim, and covered with lino - later models had cast aluminium footboards.

Regards,
Eddie.

Sorry, somehow the attachment got added twice! (Now rectified)

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #12 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 10:59 »

A close up of my clutch…

Hutch · « **Reply #13 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 23:02 »

Hi All,

Picture of gearboxes and clutches attached from the Douglas Literature of the day.

Edit:- 1911 see below.

1912 From 1912 Specifications and Price Lists of Douglas Motor Cycles & Spare Parts Also Working Instructions etc.

1913 From 1913 Douglas Motor Bicycles. Specifications, Price Lists, and Working Instructions.

1914 From Douglas Motors Working Instructions and Price list of Spare Parts for the 2 ¾ H.P. Douglas Motorcycle

1915 Information from Preliminary List - Douglas Improvements 1915 (same gearbox and clutch arrangement for the “cork inset” clutch also shown in The Handbook of the Douglas Motorcycle 1916) Used on 1915 Model W 2 3/4 H.P (3 speed with clutch).

I think all up there were possibly at least 5 6 different Clutch setups for the 2 ¾ H.P. Models if you include the later dry pate version and the flywheel clutch.

Cheers

Hutch

Hutch · « **Reply #14 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 23:46 »

I missed the 1911 version of the "cone clutch" (or at least that is what it looks like). Not much info. on this other than this picture from the 1911 Douglas Brothers Booklet.

So possibly at least 6 Different clutches ?

-Hutch

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #15 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 23:50 »

A few pics of my transmission… Does anyone know what the petcock up top is for?

Photos converted to linked images. shadow detail lightened. Aspect ratio fixed - Dave, 03Jan2023

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #16 on:** 02 Jan 2024 at 23:55 »

After studying the foot pegs some more and the clutch pedal I can now see where someone made the whole bracket to hold the pedals etc. not really a bad job either… I would love to find the original pedals and running boards to make this correct… the last photo shows the edging made on to the front fender that the fender wings would have slid in and attached to…

Photos converted to linked images. shadow detail lightened. Aspect ratio fixed - Dave, 03Jan2023

cardan · « **Reply #17 on:** 03 Jan 2024 at 03:33 »

Quote from: Hutch on 02 Jan 2024 at 23:46

I missed the 1911 version of the "cone clutch" (or at least that is what it looks like). Not much info. on this other than this picture from the 1911 Douglas Brothers Booklet.

Nice. This would have to be pretty rare? It seems the clutch actuator for this model (announced at the end of 1910) was somehow mounted on the super-long footrests...

Back to George's bike: Like the non-standard handlebars, I wonder if there's a case to leave the home-made footrests and clutch pedal as they are? Sure the correct pedals could be located (sorry I don't have them, and they will be hard to find) and the foot boards and their mounts reconstructed, but what about a deep clean and preservation in the state the last owner left it in?

I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd have to change the AMAL carb to a veteran AMAC or Douglas, and the bicycle pedals are very ugly indeed (Black Sheep's "bodge" is spot on!) but they could stay, as could the bars, in an "oily rag" recommissioning.

If original-style foot pedals, foot boards, handlebars, handlebar levers... could be acquired, an oily-rag 1913 Model R would be lovely. And of course a full restoration with paint and plate would look great, but I'm not sure I'd be doing it here. Decisions...

The petcock is for putting semi-fluid grease into the gearbox.

Leon

Hutch · « **Reply #18 on:** 03 Jan 2024 at 06:10 »

Quote from: cardan on 03 Jan 2024 at 03:33

Quote from: Hutch on 02 Jan 2024 at 23:46
I missed the 1911 version of the "cone clutch" (or at least that is what it looks like). Not much info. on this other than this picture from the 1911 Douglas Brothers Booklet.
Nice. This would have to be pretty rare? It seems the clutch actuator for this model (announced at the end of 1910) was somehow mounted on the super-long footrests...

Leon

Thanks for posting the picture of the Model E (and F) footboards Leon - it reminded me that I have a picture of the clutch actuator somewhere but cannot find it at the moment - will keep searching. I did have one of these gearboxes in my possession for a short time (no clutch came with it) but alas it was not mine and I was only the go between between ebay and the new owner!. Yes quite rare.

This did remind me of a U-Tube video of the starting of a 1911 Model E Douglas using the hand starting handle - pity the person in the picture doesn't show us the clutch actuator! :-).

I'm happy to post the pictures of all the 1913 models on this thread (from Model N - single speed with pedals thru Model R two speed with clutch and Model S open frame ladies version with clutch) from the 1913 Douglas Booklet if anyone is interested? Model N has been posted elsewhere on the forum but not sure about the others.

Cheers

Hutch

George Kulisiewicz · « **Reply #19 on:** 04 Jan 2024 at 02:03 »

Hutch,
I would be interested in seeing any material you have to share..

Leon,
My goal is to definitely leave the bike as original oil wipe as I can… I will leave the pedals but will be on the hunt as I would like to possibly put the correct running boards and pedals back on the bike… The handle bars look to be period correct with a nice patina so I have no issue keeping them as they are… I did recently purchase an original Douglas carb… it is missing the float and one slide but machining a few parts and finding a float that will work shouldn’t be too hard…

Hutch · « **Reply #20 on:** 04 Jan 2024 at 06:40 »

No worries George,

Here is the information on 1913 2 3/4 H.P. Models from the 1913 Douglas Motor Bicycles, Specifications, Price Lists and Working Instructions. This is a battered original. Reproductions can be obtained from the LDMCC.

Starting with Model N. Note that the tank mountings appear to be from 1912 which seems to indicate that these single speed models with "light pedal assist" were left overs from the previous year. Note also that the belt drive is on the left hand side of the bike, not the right hand side as on all the other 1913 model machines.

-Hutch