Author Topic: Can you identify this model?  (Read 19052 times)

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Offline raphael

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Can you identify this model?
« on: 09 Oct 2005 at 21:38 »
Hello,
Can you identify this model?
And how much to have to pay?
The engine is blocked!
But is complete

Thank you very much
Raphael Crelier
Switzerland



Larger view HERE
« Last Edit: 16 Oct 2005 at 12:17 by Dave »

Offline alwyn

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #1 on: 09 Oct 2005 at 23:26 »
Hello Raphael and welcome to the forum,
The bike you have photographed is a T35 350 cc probably of 1948 vintage - the rocker covers have the name Douglas indented - this was a feature discontinued in later models - to positively identify what year the bike was produced check the frame, engine and gearbox numbers - refer HERE for the location of these and then check for the corresponding numbers in the schedule. One thing I note about the bike is the tank colour - I believe the centre panel was originally black not blue as in the photograph and the surround was chromed indicating a repaint of this tank at some time - others may like to comment on this aspect?

We hesitate to quote a value for the bike - could be $A6000 to $A7500 in Australia or more - maybe someone can quote recent sale prices for you as a guide?
Alwyn
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Image of tank in what is believed to be original blue, black and chrome livery.

« Last Edit: 16 Oct 2005 at 12:20 by Dave »
Quotable Quote - "640 k should be enough for anybody"! - Bill Gates - 1981.

Offline Doug

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #2 on: 11 Oct 2005 at 05:29 »
I think I have seen other pictures of early T35 petrol tanks without the chrome plated swath and blue top panel. 

There was a T35 Standard and a T35 Deluxe model cataloged, though it is not quite clear to me what the differences were.  Chrome or not on the petrol tank and blue verses black may have been one of them. 

So I would give it the benefit of the doubt and say it is original petrol tank paint scheme. 

-Doug

Offline trevorp

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #3 on: 11 Oct 2005 at 07:12 »
bike certaintly is t35 mk 1 if it had a box type swingarm it is a deluxe the ealry ones had a tube swingarm and the deluxe is slightly longer alwyns paint is true for deluxe and some did have blue panels mainly on the first models
i bought mine going for about 3 k but needs a lot of work but not many parts
the cost of chroming the tank and having it painted is very expensive so many have just copied pictures they have seen
i still drool at alwyns tank but mine will be done soon enough

Offline Doug

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #4 on: 12 Oct 2005 at 05:05 »
Trevor,

Tubular swingarms were only used on the prototypes and perhaps early pre-production before switching over to the box swingarm design.  Some of these tubular swingarms did get out into public hands.  I do not think it was meant to be part and parcel of a Deluxe version.

-Doug

Offline trevorp

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #5 on: 29 Oct 2005 at 12:19 »
according to to t35 operations and maintenece manual the difference between a deluxe and a standard,  the deluxe model has a torsion bar sprung frame and the standard had an rigid frame
never seen a rigid frame t 35 coulndt have been many made

Offline Doug

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #6 on: 02 Nov 2005 at 02:47 »
According to Jeff Clew's book, "The Douglas Motorcycle, The Best Twin":

"It had been intended to market also a rigid frame version of the DeLuxe model, but these plans never materialized.  The lugs produced for the rigid frames were used in the later competition models." 

Note 'competition' here means the trials models.  There were some prototype rigid T35 frames made and still about.  Ken Blake used one to house a DV60 engine to build a hybrid/replica DV60 model, featured recently in the New ConRod magazine.  True comp model frames can be identified by the upturned engine lug at the front to raise the engine for additional ground clearance. 

I also have a copy of the early T35 Handbook, code MC 138-10M-1147.  The reference to two models, the Standard being a rigid frame, I think was premature.  It is interesting to note illustrations show only the swing arm model.  Other than sub-sections on removal of the rear wheel and rear chain tension (citing the lack of variation due to the rigid frame) it gets no other mention. 

It looks like they only offered the one model, the DeLuxe, to start with. 

-Doug

Offline Doug

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #7 on: 02 Nov 2005 at 02:55 »
According to Jeff Clew's book, "The Douglas Motorcycle, The Best Twin":

"It had been intended to market also a rigid frame version of the DeLuxe model, but these plans never materialized.  The lugs produced for the rigid frames were used in the later competition models." 

Note 'competition' here means the trials models.  There were some prototype rigid T35 frames made and still about.  Ken Blake used one to house a DV60 engine to build a hybrid/replica DV60 model, featured recently in the New ConRod magazine.  True comp model frames can be identified by the upturned engine lug at the front to raise the engine for additional ground clearance. 

I also have a copy of the early T35 Handbook, code MC 138-10M-1147.  The reference to two models, the Standard being a rigid frame, I think was premature.  It is interesting to note illustrations show only the swing arm model.  Other than sub-sections on removal of the rear wheel and rear chain tension (citing the lack of variation due to the rigid frame) it gets no other mention. 

It looks like they only offered the one model, the DeLuxe, to start with.  I would still say the petrol tank scheme sans-chrome might be original ex-works based on seeing a few other tanks painted the same.  But how or where it fits in to the catalog I do not know.  A close examination of the tank for traces of chromium plate under chips in the paint might be revealing. 

-Doug

Offline alwyn

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #8 on: 02 Nov 2005 at 05:02 »
I would still say the petrol tank scheme sans-chrome might be original ex-works based on seeing a few other tanks painted the same.  But how or where it fits in to the catalog I do not know.  A close examination of the tank for traces of chromium plate under chips in the paint might be revealing. -Doug

Doug and Trevor,
I guess it's quite possible that the T35 came from the factory in both liveries but the chrome wheel rims on the bike pictured might tell us something - my original T35 was bought in South Australia c 1950 - 51 and it was delivered with chrome tank (the side blazes only chromed in the same way as my present bike pictured above) together with chrome wheel rims - the rims had a center band about 30 mm wide painted black (over the chrome presumably) with a silver pin-stripe each side of the black band - this scheme has been emulated on my present bike no doubt I believe, copied from the original - from this I reckon it's likely that the chrome tank and wheels was the factory 'standard' for this model and it's my guess that the tank on the bike pictured by Trevor has been repainted black - I recall that a Deluxe model was available here at the same time I bought my original one - it had upswept exhaust pipes and tubular silencer boxes and was finished blue where mine was black but I cannot clearly remember whether the tank was similarly chromed but guessing again, I'd say it was.

Incidentally, there's a T35 shown in the colour centerspread of the May/June 2005 issue of NCR that clearly shows the chrome side blazes and one at the beginning of the coloured section that appears to be a paint job emulating the chrome - and just to cloud the issue still further the last page of the coloured section shows one with black instead of chrome :!:

Alwyn
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Edit = typo correction
A.
« Last Edit: 02 Nov 2005 at 07:28 by alwyn »
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Offline Daren W Australia

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #9 on: 02 Nov 2005 at 06:39 »
Hi just to add some extra info there were 20 or so T35's delivered in Sydney Australia in a CKD form and these were painted British Racing Green or Red. Ray Britten is restoring a green one at the moment and its green all the way and has matching numbers Regards Daren
too many dougli not enough time!

Offline trevorp

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #10 on: 02 Nov 2005 at 08:39 »
alwyn the model you saw with the upswept pipes was mk 3 sports it was painted black on panels with blue extending on both sides of kneepads and top. with a sliver paint where the chrome flash is to match the silver painted mudgaurds
it is really hard to know what douglas put out i have a douglas brochure that claims the t35 came out with magneto advance but have never seen one and doubt it could be fitted to the standard mn1 magneto
« Last Edit: 02 Nov 2005 at 08:43 by trevorp »

Offline alwyn

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #11 on: 02 Nov 2005 at 10:10 »
Trevor,
Here's a couple of pics I took of T35S's at the Birdwood Classic in September 2004 - the first I think is close in colour and detail to what I remember of the model available here early '50s - claims to be a Mk III according to the signwriting on the number-plate - the other one is similar but I think is a bit of a fudge that's been modified with 'after-market' megaphone type silencer (?) boxes and is not painted as the original was, either colour or tank pattern. The tank in the first appears not to have the chromed blazes which I thought was an OEM feature.
Both of course have the swinging arm/torsion-bar suspension.



Larger image HERE



Larger image HERE
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Offline Doug

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #12 on: 03 Nov 2005 at 02:48 »
Both those pictured immediately above are Mark 3 Sports models.  The one on top an early one, the lower is later, after they modified the rear sub-frame to reduce fractures. 

By the way, there were also some export Mark models painted in Post Office red! 

-Doug
« Last Edit: 03 Nov 2005 at 02:55 by Doug »

Offline eddie

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #13 on: 06 Mar 2009 at 17:41 »
Going back to the Standard and De Luxe early T35's - Norman Camamile (who worked for Douglas) told me some years ago that only 3 prototype Standard (rigid frame) T35's were produced, and that he still had one of them. Following Norman's death, all his Douglases (some dismantled) were sold off at auction. Amongst these was a rigid Mark type frame with the number 'EXP 8' - presumably this was from the rigid T35 - it was very much like a Comp frame and only differed in the minor details.

Offline Douglas T35S

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #14 on: 28 Jan 2013 at 02:29 »
Hi, I'm the owner of the second T35S in that picture, and yes I think that you are correct re the exhaust pipes, I got the bike from my late step father, who bought the bike from Mount Gambier, I know he had those pipes made up, but as for the paint job, it's exactly how he bought it.
I have always been a bit confused whether the paint job was correct or not, as one guy from the Bay to Birdwood says its exactly how he remembered it, but I couldn't find any pictures on the net of similar styles !
Any feedback I can get regarding this model, and if it is correct or not would be appreciated !
I was thinking of selling the bike, but now I am thinking that I would restore it to its original condition and style !
Cheers Tim.

Offline David Lawrence

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #15 on: 28 Jan 2013 at 10:19 »
Hi Tim,
I think the first step in identifying your bike is to check both the frame and engine numbers,  from this info we in the Douglas Club can track the factory dispatch record.
I notice from the photograph that the rear swinging arm does not carry footrests, This type of swinging arm was not fitted until the rear end was redesigned with the larger cast alloy toolboxes which incorporated a footrest on a hanger as part of the toolbox. The footrest is clearly visible on the mark 3 sports photo.
I suspect that the original frame has been replaced with the later type, the lower subframe mounting having been moved to the bottom frame lug, hence the redesigned subframe bent down to the bottom lug, the later frame was fitted with a triangular sub frame which would foul the footrests if the original early design swinging arm was retained!
The frame number is punched verticaly on the headstock near the front tank mounting. Hopefully it will be readable without damaging the paintwork!
Does the front tank mounting lug have one or three holes, I cannot see from the photo!
Good hunting!
Dave

Offline Douglas T35S

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #16 on: 29 Jan 2013 at 08:39 »
Ok cheers for that info, I will check those things and try and post some photos !

Offline Douglas T35S

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #17 on: 30 Jan 2013 at 01:58 »
Hi again, the frame number is 29536, also has T35/S/4215/3 on the frame, the engine number is T35/S  4857/S.
Cheers Tim.

Offline Douglas T35S

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #18 on: 30 Jan 2013 at 02:30 »
Hi, further to that I found another motor casing T35/S  5748/S, and also have this rear mudguard that came with the bike, and I now think I have the original exhaust pipes somewhere, I just need to look for them !



« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2013 at 19:36 by Dave »

Offline Reg

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #19 on: 30 Jan 2013 at 13:57 »
Hi Tim,

You may or may not know but the Mark Series models (Mark 3-Mark 5) left the factory with matching frame and engine numbers. The exception to this were examples from the Plus Series (Plus 80, Plus 90)and the earlier Mark 1 or T35 models.
The number on the crankcase you have 5748 was originally from a Mark 3 Sports model sent from the factory to Arro Motor Co, of South Australia on 2/2/1949.  Believed to be in Adelaide. Frame number 4215 was from a Standard Mark 3 sent again to Arro Motor Co on 14/7/1948. Engine number 4857 came from a Mark 3 Sports once again sent to Arro Motor Co. on 17/9/1948. The other number you quote 29536 is a Part Number for the headlug casting.

Reg

Offline Douglas T35S

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #20 on: 30 Jan 2013 at 20:06 »
Hi, thanks for your reply, I'm a bit confused now, so is the bike a T35/S that's had the frame replaced, or a T35 with a T35/S motor !!!!!
And does anyone know what the rear mudguard is ?
Cheers for your help !

Offline eddie

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #21 on: 30 Jan 2013 at 20:28 »
Tim,
       I would hazard a guess that your bike started life as a Mk 3 Sports. Frame breakages were quite common on the early bikes, so a later frame may have been fitted. This could have been one of the replacement frames that were supplied by the factory under warrantee, as it has the lower mounting for the rear subframe on the bottom bracket (as on the Mk4 and 5 machines) and the modified subframe. Also your swinging arm, as Dave has already noticed, is from a later Mk4 or 5 machine (no pillion footrests). As far as I am aware, the only difference between a Mk3 frame and a Mk3 Sports is that the standard Mk3 frame had 2 mounting strips for the central toolbox welded to the underside of the top tubes just below the nose of the saddle.
    Regarding the rear mudguard - it looks like a previous owners attempt at customisation of an original unit - the straight runout of the front end is almost unique to the Mark series Douglas.

  Eddie.

Offline Douglas T35S

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #22 on: 31 Jan 2013 at 05:24 »
Ahh ok, cheers for that info, so the paint colour and design are wrong, it should be like the original Mark 3 sports, with the chrome on the tank, is that correct ??
I like that colour more anyway !!!
Does anybody know where I can get my tank painted and chromed back to the original design ?
The rest of the bike I can do myself, but that unique tank design looks a bit complicated !!
Thanks for all your help with this guys, I appreciate it !

Offline Mk III Sports

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Re: Can you identify this model?
« Reply #23 on: 10 Jun 2017 at 13:35 »
Hi,
I've just discovered the forum and am the owner of the early Mk III Sports pictured at the beginning of the thread.
I am the fourth owner from new and have kept in touch with two of the now late previous owners.
The second owner also gave me all of his extensive stock of original spares which I have never had to use.
A fun and reliable machine to own.
Mick.