Pre-war ISDT Douglas?

[cardan]

I'm a huge fan of Eddie's ex-Breffitt 1950 ISDT Douglas. In the past few weeks I've been enjoying reading about the ISDT (International Six Days Trial) in the 1930s, mostly looking for info on the Rudge entries. I can recommend the website https://speedtracktales.com/ for anyone interested in such things, and the page for 1950 has some nice pics of Eddie's bike.

I wonder did a Douglas ever compete in the ISDT prewar? I somehow can't picture a 1930s Douglas wallowing in the mud then doing a speed test at a racetrack, but I'm prepared to be surprised. Maybe with a sidecar? If no-one knows, I'll flip through the lists and see if I can find one. A typical 1930s ISDT had 200-250 starters, so a few thousand ISDT bikes total during the 1930s.

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Oh yes, Douglas did have some ISDT entries, as well as the International Vase. I copied this into the files a few years ago:

Douglas ISDT entrants in the thirties:

1930, France-Germany
#22   H.M. Hicks   ‘Class D’
#23   Mrs L. McLean   ‘Class B’  (almost certainly a 350cc SV)
#34   W.C. Anstice   ‘Class D’
#37   J.W. Douglas   ‘Class D’

1931, Italy
Apparently no Douglas entries

1932, Italy
#102   M. Green   600 Douglas
#111   A.M. Martin   600 Douglas
#122   E.J. Kehoe   600 Douglas

1933, Wales
#68   J.L. Park      496 Douglas

No entries for in 1934 or ’35. Did not check for later years. (http://speedtracktales.com)

The included photo is supposed to be the team for one of the ISDT, though the entrant numbers do not match any of the events above. Of interest is the apparent fitting of DT engines in single loop (A31 type?) frames on the middle and right hand machine (left hand machine is a B31 side vale or similar). They would have to be short stroke DT engines to fit! I inquired to Morton's Media a few years ago about tracking down a copy of the original print, but its has been lost.

A side view of a 1931 Junior TT Douglas shows how it could have been done.

There was also an article by Jeff Clew in the May 2007 issue of Old Bike Mart showing JW Douglas on HY555 (possible the right hand machine of the trio) on a trial over Hard Knott Pass. 

There are other pictures of trials teams, but I don't know if they are ISDT, the Vase, or domestic events.

-Doug

[eddie]

Leon,
       Mick Walker's book - International Six Days Trial (The Olympics of Motorcycling) mentions 3 Douglas machines in pre war events. The first was in 1913 when the team that won the new International Trophy consisted of W B Gibb (348 Douglas), Billy Little (499 Premier) and Charlie Collier (Matchless S/C). The next was Vic King (348 Douglas) in the 1928 event. The last mention was for 1932 with Maurice Greenwood (Douglas).
  The EW's were popular trials machines but may not have had the stamina for the ISDT.

  Regards,
                Eddie.

[cardan]

Blipping fascinating! A DT motor in an A31 frame - now I could imagine that in an event like the ISDT.

I hadn't realised until recently quite how the ISDT worked (at least in the pre-war years). My understanding is that the "main event" - for "The Trophy" - was for teams entered by each country, on bikes made in that country. In the early days teams were two solos and a sidecar outfit - thus Eddie's mention of the successful 1913 British Team of Douglas/Premier/Matchless s/c. I think it was like this through the 1930s.

The second tier event was for the "Silver Vase", again for teams entered by their country, but you could ride anything - it didn't have to be from your own country. Countries could enter two teams for "the Vase".

So in a given year, Britain might enter a team in "the Trophy" and two teams in "the Vase" - Britain Vase A and Britain Vase B.

Then there were teams entered by manufacturers or clubs, and even individual entrants. The slightly weird thing is that it seems a rider could be part of a number of different teams - maybe the British Vase B, the Douglas team and the Bristol MCC team.

Doug - I wonder if your photo of the Douglas Team is from the "selection trials" that were carried out to select the British teams for the Trophy, Vase A and Vase B teams? Maybe 1931, and maybe they were not selected? (When you put two maybes in the one sentence, you wonder whether it was worth typing it!) The selection trials were an event in themselves, reported in the magazines of the day. The ISDT was unusual for its combination of speed and endurance, and I can't envisage such interesting machines being developed for local trials.

Thanks for the interesting info.

Cheers

Leon

[Doug]

Doug - I wonder if your photo of the Douglas Team is from the "selection trials"...

Leon,

I don't know.  I have not been able to trace the image back to the original publication to see if there was any accompanying text. It looks like something that would have been in the 'Blue' or the 'Green-un', but I had a go at the VMCC archives years ago without finding it. The snippet of the Junior TT bike is from the UK magazine. Given that the entrant numbers do not match the ISDT, it probably is a Douglas team for some other trial.

-Doug

[douglas1947]

Leon,

very great stuff!!!
I will need some time to study it all.

Michael

[cardan]

England hosted the ISDT in 1925 (with Wales), 1926, 1927 and 1928.

In 1926, Douglas entered four EWs and an OC outfit (ridden by Harold Hicks), all completing the trial with gold medals. At the time, there was urgent need to demonstrate the reliability of the EW, which had had some serious quality problems in early production.

Here are the riders, and the subsequent advertising.

Leon

[Hutch]

Hi Leon,

Your comment about an OB outfit and trials in your post;

https://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=7809.msg29930;topicseen#msg29930

jogged my memory of this picture;

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531435087.r=douglas%201925?rk=300430;4

of the Douglas team at the Paris-Nice Pesage-pour-la-Course in 1925.

The picture title is;
"
 6/3/25, [pesage pour la course de motocyclettes] Paris-Nice, équipe Douglas [Austrie, King, Stencer, Hiko sur motocyclettes et side-car] : [photographie de presse] / [Agence Rol]"

given the translation are some of the riders King, Spencer (Stencer) and Hicks (Hiko) ??

(EDIT Is Austrie = Anstice?? I have not found an entrant list to confirm who the riders and passenger are )

Similar team structure to the 1926 ISDT but with  3 CWs instead of 4 EWs and an OB instead of an OC?

Cheers

Ian

"

[cardan]

Good spellers, the French! Here are the Douglas riders in the 1925 ISDT held in England/Wales. Presumably CW/OB. Not much to brag about?

Leon