Author Topic: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??  (Read 3063 times)

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Offline germanxxx

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S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« on: 22 May 2017 at 23:48 »
So I believe this bike is a T6 but my dad thought it was an S6. Dual spring fork, painted tank leads me to T6. Engine number eo 435 and frame number yf388. What do you think? No floorboards or rear rack....bike was sold as 1930.

Offline eddie

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2017 at 06:43 »
Hi,
     Your bike is listed in the LDMCC machine register as a 1930 S6. From the details you have given, I would guess that the forks have been changed at some time during it's life. As it's an early machine, the tank would probably have been painted from new.
  Regards,
               Eddie.

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2017 at 16:15 »
Thanks Eddie!

Understanding how it is listed with the LDMCC, do the frame and engine numbers match with an S6?

Other questions:

Is the shape of the tank different between a T6 and an S6? When you say painted from new, do you mean by Douglas or by the owner after purchase. Would it be worth it to remove a small spot of paint to see if the tank is chrome underneath?

Also would it be worth the time to pursue changing the front forks over??

From the original sales documents, it looks like the bike had white wall tires? Is this correct?

I appreciate any feedback. I'm a purist up to the point of having a good riding/running machine. Honestly where I live no one would be the wiser with the tank and fork crossed up between models.

Offline eddie

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #3 on: 24 May 2017 at 07:52 »
Both the S6 and T6 used identical frames and engines - the T6 being a touring 600 and the S6 a sports 600. Only the original invoice for the machine or the original registration document would have stated as to which model it started life. The S6 and T6 (along with their smaller sibling, the S5, a sports 500) shared the majority of components - the main differences being footrests on the S6 (footboards on the T6), a rear carrier on the T6, and twin spring forks with fixed handlebars on the T6. All petrol tanks were the same shape, and chrome plating was not common on British bikes until late in 1930.
  With regard to the tyres - Mr Douglas would fit what ever the customer wanted - if your bike was originally an export machine for the American market, it could well have had white wall tyres
  Regards,
                Eddie.

P.S. I think you may have mis-read your engine number - it should be EQ 435.

Offline germanxxx

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Thanks again for the information Eddie!

New questions:
1) Does anyone have photos of the throttle assembly (as new)?
2) Where the cylinders painted or plated. If painted, what color? Is plated, was it cadmium?
3) In England do you need to retrofit your 1930 motorcycles to have a brake light (eg. not just the tail lamp?)

Thanks,
Bill in VT.

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #5 on: 26 May 2017 at 18:01 »
1. There are two types that might be fitted. An AMAC or Douglas' own manufacture. Both are shown in this post.

http://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=4914.msg17603#msg17603

2. The cylinders were nickel plated. I thought possibly the T6 might have enameled cylinders to save money, but according to the catalog illustrations (caveat-emptor!) both the T6 and the S5/S6 are illustrated with 'bright' cylinders.

3. I'm non-UK, so cannot help on this one.

-Doug

[fix typos. 26May17. -Doug]
« Last Edit: 26 May 2017 at 23:49 by Doug »

Offline Chris (Sprinter)

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #6 on: 26 May 2017 at 22:16 »
Brake lights do NOT need to be fitted. Neither do speedometers on vehicles pre 1937.

Chris

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2017 at 22:18 »
Thaks for all the info. Now looking for inverted levers and a proper throttle control.

Now for a new question. Is there an air filter? I live on a dirt road and I figure riding around on it is vacuuming all the dirt and dust right up into the cylinders...

Thanks again,
Bill

Offline Chris

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #8 on: 30 May 2017 at 05:23 »
Hi Bill
I have never seen an air filter on an S6/T6. It would be very difficult to arrange as the inlet of the carb is only about 1/4" above the exhaust pipe.  Chris.

Offline eddie

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #9 on: 30 May 2017 at 06:46 »
Bill,
       The only bikes I have seen with an air filter are the later D32 and H32 models that had a modified timing cover that took a sidedraught carburettor (see the photo guide).
  Regards,
                Eddie.

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #10 on: 31 May 2017 at 01:59 »
Thanks Chris! Tonight I looked at the setup and agree that there's no room. I was thinking of a foam sock but I'm not sure that would be a great idea so close to the exhaust. Oh well, I figure the exhast pipe will just have to act as the air filter.

Bill

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #11 on: 31 May 2017 at 03:23 »
Bill,

I think the close proximity of the carburetor inlet was to pick up some hot air from the exhaust and prevent carburetor icing. On other models Douglas would arrange a inlet tube to draw air from the proximity of a cylinder head or the exhaust system. Of course if it caught fire it could be very hot indeed! Perhaps it was just bad design.

-Doug

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6?? - horn and headlamp
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jun 2017 at 13:55 »
Hello again!

More new questions...
1) what type of horn was on a 1930 douglas s6/t6?
2) what type of horn button would have been used?
3) did they ever put dipper switches on the bars for the headlamp? This might be an aftermarket convenience but if not original I'll be talking it off.
4) how much oil does this bike take or how do you check it to make sure it's full.
Thanks again,
Bill in VT


Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #13 on: 10 Jun 2017 at 15:16 »
Bill,

Lighting and horns were sold separately, so if the owner bought them later almost anything could be fitted. Though, as far as the dynamo was concerned one was pretty much stuck with using the BTH PA series.

If the owner bought the machine with lights, Douglas offered the BTH lighting system for 5.10.0 sterling (5.15.0 sidecar), so the head and tail lamp would be BTH. The BTH headlamp of that time had a multi-position switch on the back. Park, low, and high beam were all incorporated into that switch. Douglas also still offered a acetylene lighting system, maker unspecified, but they had been using Powell & Hammer in the preceding years.

In 1930 Douglas catalog they offered two types of electric horn; the Klaxon Kifonet (vibrator type) and the Kloxet (motor driven type). 0.10.0 sterling and 0.15.0 respectively. It is not specified or shown where the button of the electric horn was. No doubt third-party ratchet type klaxons and pneumatic bulb horns were still very much popular.

The S5/S6/T6 has a oil reservoir below the engine. You fill it until the oil is just a little below the filler opening.

-Doug


[fix typo. 10Jun17 -Doug]
« Last Edit: 10 Jun 2017 at 15:37 by Doug »

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #14 on: 10 Jun 2017 at 15:31 »
Thanks Doug! My headlamp has the multi position switch on it, however someone rigged a supper switch to it. I'm thinking about removing the ripper switch. The multi position switch on the headlamp should be fine. I don't expect a lot of night riding and I'm sure the high bean is no where near the xynon lights they have in today's modern cars.

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jun 2017 at 11:30 »
Hello all,
Ok next question. I've been looking at a lot of pictures but can't make out how the horn is mounted. Or to what the horn is mounted. The sales article shows the horn under the tank and I'd like to mount it there. Did it attach to the tank bolt with an L shaped bracket?

Thanks again,
Bulk


Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jun 2017 at 12:03 »
When the accumulator was above the front cylinder the horn would mount to the accumulator carrier. The mount for the carrier would go over the top of the front petrol tank mount and pick up those two bolts. It then continued out the other side and provided an additional hole for the horn bracket to attach to.

In 1933 the accumulator had to move to the seat post, as the dynamo now occupied the space over the front cylinder. The hooter also moved rearward.

-Doug

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jun 2017 at 14:29 »
Hi Doug,

So it sounds like a long narrow strip of sheet steel was placed below the tank and the horn hung from that. So did they use the single point mount on the horn?  Was it like the diagram below?

_____________________
                                       \______

I think I understand. Any photos that you know of? Also, this may be a silly question but what is the accumulator?

Bill

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jun 2017 at 15:55 »
Ok got it an accumulator is a battery. My battery is located by the rear cylinder. Should it be located in the front for a 1930 model?

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jun 2017 at 17:17 »
Indeed; Brit bikes have accumulators, tyres, and use aluminium alloys. When I speak American motorcycle; it is battery, tires, and aluminum.

I don't think I have a photo of a genuine S6 accumulator carrier, so I will try to do a sketch and scan this evening. But basically you have the idea. It steps down a little after the mounting strap clears the tank mount bracket. It is a single point fixing (3/8 inch hole) for the horn, but the rear edge is squared and the front rounded off. I presume this is because the bracket on the horn has the tail end turned up ninety degrees and it engages the squared off side as a anti-rotation feature.



-Doug
« Last Edit: 12 Jun 2017 at 19:46 by Doug »

Offline oil baron

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #20 on: 13 Jun 2017 at 02:48 »
Hi
On this site, there is a copy of the works drawing for a S/6  T/6  battery carrier, look for correspondence regarding  member tdale66 dated 16/1/2011  enquiring about spare parts for an S/6, one item mentioned was a battery carrier, Martin (MRD) replied  included a copy of the works drawing for the battery carrier, as shown in Doug's sketch.  I am not sure of what the original factory lower retaining strap was like, but I assume it had some sort of lip on either side to stop the battery from sliding out. Hope this helps

Cheers SteveL.
Steve L

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #21 on: 13 Jun 2017 at 03:22 »
Steve,

I forgot about that. The top has a bit of curvature that would stop the accumulator from sliding out the side; assuming it was kept reasonably tight!

Bill,

Many of the catalog images seem to have been taken before all of the electrical equipment was fitted (and perhaps yet to be figured out!) I did find a publicity photo of a T6 fitted with electrics, but no horn. Given the tartan tank panels, this must 1931-32.



A close up of the accumulator area:



The large wing nuts can be seen partially hidden by the ignition leads. There does not seem to be any cleats on the lower strap to stop the accumulator from slipping out.

The vertical rib I think is cast into the accumulator casing, rather than part of the accumulator carrier frame. The color and patination match the rest of the accumulator case.

-Doug
« Last Edit: 14 Jun 2017 at 00:11 by Doug »

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #22 on: 13 Jun 2017 at 23:29 »
Doug,

Thanks for the information. I now know that my battery carrier isn't correct, the horn is not correct, the throttle assembly is not correct, the brake and clutch levers are not correct, the headlamp is not correct, and, ummm, the dipper switch. So. I'm going to start by seeing if I can get the battery carrier fabricated. Waiting for a response on the throttle and levers. Unlikely that I'll find a bth headlamp but I did find the klaxton logo horn. I will start with the horn. Figure that some parts had to be changed over the years.

Bill in VT

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #23 on: 14 Jun 2017 at 22:25 »
Doug, or anyone else,

Any idea what the bottom battery carrier plate looks like? Any original out there to snap a photo of? The picture Doug provided is good but I like to see the full shape.

Thanks,
Bill n VT

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #24 on: 22 Jun 2017 at 02:33 »
Bill,

Later in the mid-thirties on the Aero 250/350/500/600cc models it was just a piece of 1x1/8 flat bar; but I am not 100% positive if it was the same for the T6/S5/S6.

I took the factory drawing posted in the aforementioned thread and made a model from it.



Initially all looked good, but then a problem. It does not fit on the frame!



I am using a hard case Exide accumulator that probably dates from the mid-fifties. Even if the accumulator of the day were narrower and cleared the frame tube (the length is a perfect match), the top of the accumulator would foul the gussets on the petrol tank bracket (indicated by the yellow arrow.

Quandary!

Current thought is the hole for the petrol tank bolt should be offset. Perhaps the draughtsman mistakenly assumed the hole was supposed to be centered. This could shift the accumulator away from the frame tube, but does not address the vertical height unless the accumulator moved well outboard. Again, the vertical offset could have been another drafting error. It seems odd to have two major mistakes. Not that they were perfect back then, but usually they were more careful than today because altering a drawing was much more labor intensive. So they put a lot more time in planning and laying out a drawing. Once it was inked up, it was permanent!

So anyone out there have an original one of these that they could compare to?

-Doug

Offline ManfrerdSt

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #25 on: 22 Jun 2017 at 20:45 »
A Batt holder original is a good thing, but I do not believe that there are still batteries in these dimensions.
A 12 x 9 x 16 cm does not fit in.
Regards
     Manfred


Offline cardan

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #26 on: 22 Jun 2017 at 23:25 »

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6?? - horn fit
« Reply #27 on: 24 Jun 2017 at 23:01 »
Doug,

Can't help with an original battery carrier. I did receive my klaxon kifonet. Overall length is 4.5 inches. I choose a model with a single point mount. It's 2-3/4 inches from the center of the mounting bolt thread opening to the end of the bell (that's a linear measurement). And 3-7/8inch diameter at the bell. Just a quick fit, the bell hits the down tube if mounted directly in line with the tank mount. So if it was done as shown in the ad they most likely mounted it ahead of the bell flange using the flat plate type mount. Again, Any help would be appreciated.

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #28 on: 25 Jun 2017 at 02:19 »
Both the rubber case batteries listed at the Burton bike site are virtually the same width (within a millimeter). The 118x82x158 version is the same as the Exide case that I used. So no joy there.

-Doug

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #29 on: 29 Jun 2017 at 00:41 »
Doug,
I set my battery case in place and don't really believe that the gusset to be the problem. Rather it appears that the tank bolt will contact the top of the battery first. I wonder if the put a rubber grommet between the battery and tank mouning bolt.

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #30 on: 29 Jun 2017 at 01:15 »
Bill,

Yes, the head of the bolt would be an additional problem. The offset in the carrier to clear the head of the bolt is only 3/16 inch. Not sure that I have an original petrol tank bolt in the jar of loose hardware that came with my Greyhound project, but that does not seem nearly enough room. Another reason I think there are errors in the drawing. The spares list does not mention a washer, so perhaps it was a special bolt with a very large and shallow head? A shoulder bolt perhaps? The bolt is given as part number Z447-1, but an illustration is not provided. 

Underneath the petrol tank bracket I would expect just the head of the bolt (and a washer, if that was an omission in the spares list).  My understanding is the carrier sat directly on the petrol tank bracket, and then the rubber tank isolators (buffers) on top of the carrier. Cannot see it being any other way.

-Doug

Offline germanxxx

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #31 on: 11 Jul 2017 at 22:46 »
Is there any updates on the battery carrier. I've made a temporary bracket for the horn side and it looks like the klaxon kifonet is going to fit just fine. Now I'm ready to try the battery side.

Offline Doug

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Re: S6 or T6. S6 or t6??
« Reply #32 on: 12 Jul 2017 at 02:31 »
Not yet. I have a query out to someone with part of an original carrier but it might be a while before I hear back.

-Doug